THIS is exactly my point! Why must we ONLY fight? Does the main character have to be a senseless fighter that only kills people through sneaking, magic or just cutting through them? We SHOULD have a way of interacting differently with the story, though not ALWAYS. Of course there should be situations where we must fight and there's no other way around it except for running of course...

Dude... You are trying to end an endless dragon rampage, not pick up a flower

Read it again if you must. At the end I wrote "Respecting the fact that there ARE situations that we can't avoid fighting". I didn't imply to discuss things over with Alduin, although FIGHTING against him isn't an option either if you think about it, because it's a rather ridiculous suggestion by itself.
And like I said, it shouldn't be included EVERYWHERE, it should be included in lots of scenarios where you just DON'T have to fight. Like if a bandit attacks you (like in Oblivion) you could give him your gold and he walks away.

I really don't see how you could complete Skyrim's main quest without fighting at some point, after all, our job is to stop a god served by dragons from eating the world. Surely you don't expect to talk Alduin out of it? While we don't know what direction the main quest will go in, exactly, I don't see how it could possibly not involve fighting before the end. I'm certainly not against having diplomatic solutions where it's reasonable for them to be present. I'm actually hoping many quests have both violent and non-violent approaches, if it would be reasonable for them to have them, but not all problems could necessarily be solved without violence, just because it's an RPG doesn't mean you should be able to do anything you could possibly think of regardless of whether it would be reasonable to actually do it. Really, the "Do whatever you want." thing should probably actually be "Do whatever you want, within reason." And by that, I mean not just what's feasible for the developers to include, but also what could actually concievably work within the game world.

In short, I certainly wouldn't mind the option to solve some problems without violence where it would be reasonable to do so, but I certainly don't expect the game to let me talk Alduin to death.

There's a fairly extensive thread on the Oblivion boards about playing as a pacifist, and it's come up on this board before as well.

There are actually a fair number of people who have done it in Oblivion, and even a number of people who have done it in Morrowind. Though doing it within those games requires a somewhat limited definition of "pacifist" as someone who doesn't directly kill. Common tactics include using illusion effects to avoid fights or to get opponents to fight each other, using conjuration to get other things to kill opponents, using stealth to sneak past potential opponents, and simply running away. There are people who have played all the way through the game without directly making a single kill. It actually should be nominally possible to get through Oblivion without even killing anyone indirectly, though it would be impossible to do that in Morrowind, since there are NPCs (at least one of the Dagoths - can't remember his name) that you have to kill in order to advance the story.

I actually have a pure pacifist character in Oblivion. He just came about because I was running through male Breton faces, working on an entirely different character, and ran across a face that just jumped out at me as such a character. I just saw the face and it all clicked, all at once. So I put the character together (from a save at the sewer exit - that's another thing - it's pretty much impossible to get through the sewers with a pacifist character), took him around the IC a bit, then went out the door, headed for Chorrol. He didn't make it any further than Weye. He really wants to help Aelwin, but he can't even bring himself to kill slaughterfish, or in any way be responsible for their deaths, and there's no other way to get their scales. So there he sits.

I'd love to see the game introduce strategies and techniques and options that would make it possible to play such a character. That's not even because I have that much interest in playing one - the one I have in Oblivion is just a one-off character that I put together on the spot - not something I really set out to do. I'd just like to see the options and strategies in the game to make it through with a character like that because (setting aside budget and time constraints) ANY new thing to do or new way to do things that's added to the games is a good thing.

And I have to point out, in parting, that anyone who doesn't understand and agree with that last statement really doesn't understand the stated philosophy of the Elder Scrolls.

Fighting him isn't as far-fetched as trying to talk things over with him. Aside from that, there most likely will be situations where diplomacy is the best solution and this will very easily encourage 'Bard' like characters; but, I feel it won't extend beyond bribing a bandit or calming down a hostile NPC that is tinkering on the verge of killing you.

Originally you stated (from the OP)



This is more to what I am talking about. More options is one thing but this suggestion is just stretching the phrase "be anything, do anything" a little too far. You and I can agree that some situations might include the elusive use of speech to talk down an opponent, but outside of this and more importantly in the main quest, there will not be an option to complete the MQ without having to crack some skulls in.

Edit: And what gpstr said above me is pretty good, you can play a pacifist but in a very, very limited sense.

As far as I am concerned, Fallout series (at least 2 and 3) let you finish the main quest without killing anyone (in Fallout 3, the only thing you MUST kill are the radroachs with the BB gun in the vault).

Yes, let's try to convince the God of Time to just calm down and not eat the world. Maybe try to figure out what his problem with the world is and fix that through a very grueling and long process of psychic therapy.

Sounds like fun.

Combat is a staple in the elder scrolls series.

There should defnitely be some quests you can solve without fighting, not neccessarily in a nice way.
For example in FONV the Ghost Town Gunfight involves the villagers of Goodsprings refusing to hand Ringo over to the tender mercies of the Powdergangers. You can side with either faction and then theres a fight. There could have been other ways eg convince Goodsprings to hand over Ringo, betray Ringo's location to the Powdergangers or smuggle Ringo out of the area.
Not every quest can be non-violent and I'd be surprised if the MQ endgame isn't but theres a reason why we have more than combat skills - why we have speechcraft, illusion and sneak - and it seems a shame so little use of this is made in RPGs in general nowadays.

My two-pence (two-cents?) worth...

Yes, it would be nice if, as far as possible, one could avoid killing. As mentioned above, Bethesda made a point of mentioning in a couple of press interviews that it was possible to complete the main quest without killing. TES is very well supplied with alternatives to killing, what with extreme stealth (fortified with potions and spells), calm spells, pick-pocketing etc. It wouldn't take a huge amount of effort on Bethesda's part to make it possible to at least complete the main quest non-violently. For instance, if the golden dragon-claw quest shown in the E3 demo was vital to progress the main plot, then just make sure that it's possible to search the Dunmer's pockets for the trinket while he's still in the spider's web. Or make sure that with a high enough mercantile/speechcraft/persuasion skill you can get him to hand over the claw. Or even just calm or paralyse him when he runs and then pick his pockets.

As for defeating Alduin... well it's not likely you're going to be actually killing him. Or even fighting him. For one thing, Daedra can't be killed, only banished; and you're unlikely to be banishing a powerful Daedric prince with a sword. At least, not unless Bethesda have decided to forget lore and go for drama without sense. There'll be some indirect plot mechanism for defeating Alduin, which unless it requires a blood sacrifice won't necessarily oblige the player character to kill.

I suspect that at least some killing will be required, simply because even with the best of intentions Bethesda are likely to overlook a non-violent option for some plot critical event. And playing a non-violent character is likely to be extremely hard and require a really good understanding of how to build a character that can exploit every possible loophole. But a minimally violent character is likely to be possible.

I find the idea that we will literally be fighting alduin with a sword preposterous.



You seriously think you can fight that with a weapon? We're either forming a new pact with him, or some third mystery option that has yet to reveal itself to us(Perhaps we'll dance on his tower again). The fact that we can play on after the main quest tells me we aren't dragon-breaking, as putting the concept of non-linear time into the game would just frustrate everyone.

Still, words aren't going to get you dragon souls needed for the shouts. Unless you can convince the dragons to kill themselves.

Well, you wouldn't expect to reason with a troll or an undead skeleton, or a bloodthirsty bandit, but like I said before, some diplomacy would be nice. Imagine this scenario for a quest:

You come across a town that is at war with itself. Some citizens are unhappy with the local count and want him out of office, no matter what it takes. The count likes his position and wants the "rebels" dealt with in a rather straightforward way; let the guards arrest and torture the traitors. As soon as you walk into the town, the guards immediately grab you to have an audience with the count. The count explains there are assassins plotting to kill him, and wants you to kill the leader of the "rebels". Since you are new to the town, the count believes that no-one will suspect you. After you walk out of the castle, you are then grabbed by the "rebels" so that their leader may talk to you. The leader explains how this count sets unbelievably high taxes and how guards can enter a home without warning or needing a warrant and do what they may want. After explaining how horrible the count is, she asks you to kill him, since you happen to have free access to the castle. While you are wandering the streets deciding whom to kill, you strike up some conversations with the merchants about while the taxes are high and the guards can be intrusive, the count has also done some things that improve the quality of life, such as building an impenetrable wall of protection and introducing a primitive form of plumbing via aqueducts. The player can choose to kill the count or the leader of the "rebels", or with a high enough charisma and speechcraft skill, convince the leader of both parties to meet each other half-way and come to peaceful terms. All options would complete the quest.

I think that a lot more depth than simply "Kill the dikey count or the loose-cannon rebels". Like I said before, there will always be situations where the only resolution is through force, such as encounters with dangerous wildlife or confronting a god prophesied to destroy the world, but I would like it if there were more options to confrontations than "kill" or "sneak and steal".

Or convince each of them that the other will be coming to the negotiations unarmed, and if they can just smuggle in some weapons...

Then slip out of the room and wait for the 'negotiations' to conclude.

What? That's non-violent... :whistling:

Nice idea, I believe.

Speechcraft need to be more interesting than just skill power.
When we try to persuade someone, we have to "CHOOSE" carefully from the facts collected.
Some facts may not be cheap.
There is not even a perfect dialogue option, only better ones, which means sacrifice may be possible.

Speechcraft levels up each time a quest is completed through talking.
Perks like recognition of lying expression are great.

However, if you're going to persuade Alduin, you'll need to find a truth larger than nuclear bomb.

There will always be certain quests that demand a certain level of violence. That doesn't mean that pacifist options should be cut entirely. On the whole quests simply need to be more open. Bribery, blackmail, stealth, subduing opponents without killing them, etcetera should be just as viable as going in with swords swinging. And from the other direction, going in swords swinging should not always be the preferred tactic.

Not including alternative options that should reasonably be available purely for a more straightforward experience is a game flaw.

I think the idea but I doubt it will happen, partly because there is no AI system in any game so far that is good enough to implement this kind of tactic realistically and interestingly. What we do have and I expect to see in Skyrim as well are small and subtle choices like what had in Fallout 3 when we had the choice to kill the Overseer at the beginning or pickpocket him to get what we needed. The interesting thing is that few people saw that choice first time around. Like I said though, I think the tech is lacking in this. I'm imagining a text or voice recognition type of thing where you talk,negotiate,discuss with other npcs. That would be interesting.

Also, there is a potential terrible downside to this. The peaceful way to do things has been done before in real life and it gave birth to an ungodly creature, Im looking at your politics. :tongue:

Maybe not, but I don't expect poking him with a sword to have a personally rewarding outcome either. :shrug:

Diplomacy would be a nice idea, considering I would like to backstab a few people :hubbahubba:

There are plenty of ways to avoid combat, but this is a gruesome game in a gruesome time where people steal, kill, and destroy each other over land, money, and power. You will need to defend yourself against the creatures and bandits of the land.

you could do the following to not have to attack enemies, but youll still have to fight in a sense:

1. master illusion spells. this will make lesser enemies possible to avoid or render harmless.

2. master restoration. I assume you'll need to heal a lot as you'll get attacked quite a bit.

3. get good reflect damage and reflect spell spells. this lets you damage those enemies you otherwise can't avoid killing.

4. optional- learn Conjuration. this is arguably as bad as fighting, but technically you Dont kill anything yourself.

5. learn to knock players unconscious. damage fatigue would be your friend.

I wont be in any fights im just gonna one-punch and tea-bag muzza fuzzas

well how are you going to defeat the dragons without fighting them?]
r u going to hire hitmen to do it for you cause that would be gansta :thumbsup:

This isn't Deus Ex

I do think there should be cool and intuitive alternatives to mindlessly fighting all the time, however sometimes you should be pressured into a good old fashioned fight to the death!
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