Doan let people nit-pick on Fellout and you take it more seriously than makes sense, eh ..

Nothin's wrong with Fellout as it is.. and stuff. If its exactly the way you like it, it's going to be good enough for the masses.

Mods are for mod developers, and mod users are just along for the ride! (even though mod developers often try to make the ride comfortable for users instead of stuffing them in the trunk).

Considering the fact he's asking us for our advice or critique is pretty much saying "how do I make my mod better?" and there's absolutely nothing wrong for that.

Wow, this thread went places!

I've released beta2 of 1.1.17, it's up in FO3Nexus' file area. This addresses many complaints with Fellout.

- SOTD wasn't. Yeah, I $?&%ed up SOTD in 1.0.16.
- Full was just TOO dark. I'd like to extend appreciation to the FOOK2 team here, who actually went out of their way to make a nightvision which could actually work with Fellout Full.
- Water, especially wasteland pools, looked like green smoke. I'm trying to fix that (another reason release 17 is still beta).

I really want to unify the two editions (it really is a pain making a new SOTD on every release), so I've made 1.1.17b2 a sort of "hybrid". It's dark, trust me, it's dark, but you CAN still see where you're going. With difficulty. There are still some areas which go "blackout", I'm trying to minimise those. That's why it's still beta.

I want you to use night vision or to avoid the dark. There are a lot of comments here from people who've never actually been outside without streetlights or artificial lighting. It's an inky, enveloping darkness where you cannot see a damned thing. Short of adding a moon light source (the game kinda has one, but it's useless and bears no relation to the in-game moon graphic) which would require some fun with FOSE, there's not much I can do.

Fellout is the kind of post-apocalyptic wasteland you see in Fallout and Fallout2 (note: neither are green, nor have green skies, and there is no airborne algae in the Fallout divergence world) and a world where life is just struggling to hold on, but holding on it is - Hence now you have Greener Grass, a Fellout add-on which is not "green grass" but "greenER grass", this is no "Summer", it's still Fellout and the grass is still struggling and large patches of it are dead or dying. This is entirely optional. If you're playing "lore friendly" then you want it. If not, then hell, who am I to tell you what you want?

Oh and yes, continue the criticism. Fellout is not an uncontroversial mod and that controversy is what has made Fellout into what it is. Just make it constructive, there's not a lot I can do about "ur mod sux!"

I've been there. The darkness thing, I mean. I probably should have mentioned it much earlier, but my reasoning for adding a bit more light, and I mean even a tiny little bit more light, like what you say you've done in your new version, is due to the game. Even aside from the fact that NPCs aren't affected by light, it's also because of thing like moonlight, as you said. It's pretty useless, even though it should help, even a tiny bit.

A full moon is still comparatively bright... a big-o-huge fellout moon would even brighter, tbh. A new moon is utter blackness though. It's so pretty looking at the stars on such a night IRL.

NPCs actually are affected by the dark, detection is based on ambient light as well as many other factors (noise, sneak skill, perception). The problem here is that you're either 100% detected or you aren't. If you're detected then it doesn't matter how dark it is, they know exactly where you are.

I can't do a damn thing about that except tell you to have, for example, FOOK2 and FOSE and hit "n" for night vision! Or kill them with one hit from a silenced sniper rifle, or do so in VATS. If you're a melee guy or big guns guy, you don't use VATS much and so you really shouldn't be out after dark without some form of nightvision.

The bottom line is that at night, you need assistance to fight as well as you do in the day. Whether that's night vision or VATS or both is your choice to make depending on what character you are playing.

Thanks for continuing to work on this, as well as for taking feedback seriously. I am using Fellout SOTD, and I enjoy very much the changes it introduces to the atmosphere.

gothemasticator

Yeah, that's what I was referring to, not the initial detection. I've also thought that having even a bit of light gives a context and/or excuse for that ability. Being shot at in pitch darkness, when you can still use VATS to snipe people, just doesn't feel logical, so a minimum amount of context is needed. In the end I guess it can't really be helped, though.

This is a logical fallacy. You're asking someone use a feature of another mod that brightens the surroundings to make up for how your mod darkens the surroundings. Why even make it darker in the first place, with reasoning like that? Should just file it under "annoying engine limitations" and abandon the idea of inky black nights if you can't do anything about how every raider and mole rat has night vision. Halfway to realistic is halfway to svck in this case.

It is nothing of the kind. You are making the logical fallacy of assuming no exceptions to your narrow selection exists, and yet they do. A great many people enjoy the dark nights, you assume none do and they're undesirable and everyone needs to use nightvision mods. Accusing me of making the fallacy you're making is actually quite amusing.

I tried it out when it first came out and loved it but those pitch black nights with enemies that were uneffected by it made things too frustrating. I was also distracted by other mods like TheOutbreak's Wasteland Moods and the color rich Awesome Colour Enhancer.

Thanks for asking :foodndrink:

Hattix, I love your mod and I LOVE your dark nights. I live when it truly can be pitch dark on cloudy nights (as in literally not being able to see my own outstretched arm). And your mod is not that dark, but it is about perfect for simulating clear, starry, moonless nights. What is way too dark are nights when there's a moon (which you've already mentioned). I've hiked and skied in moonlight and I can see pretty well when there's even half a moon in the sky. I'm wondering if there is any way to brighten the night lighting whenever the moon is out (by using a script).

The other thing is that people play the game on systems in rooms that have all sorts of lighting conditions (and on all sorts of monitors), so perhaps there could be a way to use a global modifier to change the night brightness a bit (if this doesn't make the whole thing too complicated, as I'm trying to figure out an easier way than having to release two different mods).

I use it, but would prefer to have:

1. higher res/ more contrast sky textures
2. more weather variety
3. more sky variety
4. less blue water- I mean I would go on vacation for this stuff!

Streetlights mod + Fellout dark nights = megaawesomeness. It is really dark but there is a better pip boy light included and there are always night vision mods. Personally I love the darker nights. Oh yea this is a thread about not using Fellout. Sorry.

I tried it (even the sotd version) and these are my thoughts:

It was to dark. The times I've been out for walks at night (no city boy here) and not been able to see my hand in front of my face is extremely few - and that is how fellout ended up feeling to me. Stumbling around running into everything is no fun.

I did look at various night vision mods but I didn't feel like fine tuning the energy cell costs (and free just doesn't feel right).

Mobs did not appear to be hampered by the darkness at all and that would need to change (probably not something you can change).

Back when I was still playing I thought the sky looked to "clean" and the nights were far to dark for my tastes. It's just not for me.

I'm currently using the last release candidate and I think it's great. I really like getting rid of the green/yellow filter the game originally had and seeing well colors. One thing I noticed is that in early morning as the sun is going up after dusk and as it begins to go down just before dawn the sky looks blue but during the bulk of the day the sky looks whiteish instead of blue on a clear day. That's about the only thing off for me.

Thanks for making this mod, I really like how it makes the wasteland look.

There are a couple of things that put me off using this. The sunglare is one, I find it too "in your face" I wouldn't like to see it go altogether just toned down a bit. The other is the changes to lights, springvale school is far too bright there are no dark shadows anywhere to be seen inside the building. I've got it in my load order at the moment but i'm not sure if I'll keep it. I do like the outside though which is why I'm posting.

Hi Hattix,
I have been doing a fair amount of research recently on the detection algorithms used in the game, so perhaps I may be able to shed some light (pun intended) as to what is happening with the seemingly prescient enemies in the dark of night.

You are correct that NPCs are affected by the dark based upon a variety of factors, but its not true that you are "either 100% detected or you aren't". Enemies can be alerted to noise, or other factors, without knowing exactly where you are. You see this indoors with the CAUTION indicator in the hud.
However, it generally feels that enemies are much smarter in the darkness when outdoors.
In fact they are. They are almost twice as able to detect you at night outdoors, than when they are inside.

The reason for this has to do with the way the game calculates detection radius. Indoors in the stock game the variable 'fSneakMaxDistance' limits enemy ability to detect you to about 40 yards. Obviously this would seem too short for outdoors, so the stock game doubles this using an exterior distance multiplier.
Unfortunately 'fSneakMaxDistance' acts as a sort of global sensitivity variable, so doubling the distance also doubles enemies ability to detect you.

It is possible to correct this issue. If you reduce the fSneakExteriorDistanceMult to 1, enemies will have the same detection ability as they have indoors, however it will be at very limited (for outdoor scale) range.
At the risk of sounding self-promoting, I have overcome this problem in the latest version of my own Stealth mod, by nearly tripling the detection radius, while reducing exterior distance multiplier to below stock levels. The result of this is that enemies can detect you at a somewhat greater range than in the stock game, but are actually less sensitive than they would be indoors. I think this makes sense, as there is considerably more ground cover and ambient noise outside.
If you would like to have a look at the numbers, or even give it a try, I have included a spreadsheet with all my calculations in the archive. (http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1070865&st=0#entry15565082)

Sorry but how have you overcome this problem? All you do is massivly increase the detection indoors.

All that fSneakMaxDistance does is limit the radius at which NPCs run detection.
And all that fSneakExteriorDistanceMult does is act as a multiplicator for fSneakMaxDistance.

Hi Kai,
The fSneakMaxDistance does limit the detection radius, but it does so not by merely setting an outer limit, but by acting as one element of an attenuation calculation. The resulting attentuation calculation is applied to each of the sound, visual and skill elements to arrive at the final detection score. This means that fSneakMaxDistance has global impact on all elements of the detection algorithm.
In the stock game the interior detection is calibrated to a max distance of around 40yards. Outside this is doubled to around 80yards by the exterior multipler (2x mult). As I said earlier, increasing the value of the fSneakMaxDistance causes a corresponding global increase in enemy detection ability. This is why in the stock game enemies seem to be unnaturally aware of the player's position.

In my mod I have increased the interior detection radius to around 120yards and adjusted the calibration to offset the global increase for that distance.
I then set the exterior multiplier to .7 which actually reduces the detection radius to about 84 yards, still larger than the stock distance.
Reducing the fSneakMaxDistance in this manner globally decreases the enemies detection ability, by reducing the attenuation multiplier.
These changes mean that while the enemy's detection radius is somewhat larger than in the stock game, their detection ability is actually somewhat lower than it would be at the same distance indoors.
As I said earlier, I think this reduced ability reflects the increased cover and ambient noise, which can make sneaking easier outside.

I have done limited playtests (night attacks on the Raiders outside Springvale Elementary) and noticed a significant difference from the stock game. My concern is that it might actually reduce the enemy's detection ability a bit too much, and I would be very interested in any feedback on the issue.

Hope that clarifies things.

Sorry, for the pseudo-hijacking, Hattix!

Yeah "darker nights" is BS because the enemies are not affected by it, it only hinders the player character... those Enclave troops can see you just fine!

Hi Hattix,
Love Fellout and can't live without it.

I did stumble across one issue near the Jefferson Memorial. I read you were working with water textures so I wasn't sure if you noticed this or if there was something I did perhaps.

Without Fellout:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/C7tz1wk8Y_AalP4QVv0OSA?authkey=Gv1sRgCPGI6qi_-MS-Xw&feat=directlink
With Fellout:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/goL25vhPrJTosnoKUcf4WA?authkey=Gv1sRgCPGI6qi_-MS-Xw&feat=directlink

I've posted my load order below if you think perhaps another addon is conflicting. Thanks so much for all your hard work!

Fallout3.esmPointLookout.esmAnchorage.esmThePitt.esmBrokenSteel.esmZeta.esmUnofficial Fallout 3 Patch.esmEnhanced Weather - Rain and Snow.esmDestruction.esmProject Beauty HD version.esmStreetLights.esmMart's Mutant Mod.esmCALIBR.esmCRAFT.esmUnofficial Fallout 3 Patch - Operation Anchorage.espUnofficial Fallout 3 Patch - The Pitt.espUnofficial Fallout 3 Patch - Broken Steel.espUnofficial Fallout 3 Patch - Point Lookout.espUnofficial Fallout 3 Patch - Mothership Zeta.espCRAFT - Activation Perk.espDarNifiedUIF3.espT3T_MiscItemIcons.espOTS Camera FOSE.espCASM.espCTR Stealth v2.1.espCTR Stealth PwrArmor.espDelayAnchorage.espDelayThePitt.espDelayBrokenSteel.espDelayPointLookout.espDelayZeta.espRivet City Realignment.espGalaxyNewsRadioFix.espEVE.espEVE - Operation Anchorage.espMissingUniqueWeapons-Standard.espMissingUniqueWeapons-Standard-BS+PL.espMissingUniqueArmorClothing-Base.espHi-Res Weapons & Ammo Textures - The Pitt.espHi-Res Weapons & Ammo Textures.espUWWUT.espUWWUT - The Pitt Addon.espUWWUT - Broken Steel Addon.espWeaponModKits.espWeaponModKits - OperationAnchorage.espWeaponModKits - ThePitt.espWeaponModKits - BrokenSteel.espWeaponModKits - PointLookout.espWeaponModKits - Zeta.espWeaponModKits - AA12Shotgun.espEnhanced Weather - Rain and Snow in Fallout.espEnhanced Weather - Radioactive Rain and Snow Plugin.espEnhanced Weather - Sneak Bonus during Storms.espEnhanced Weather - Weather Sounds in Interiors.espEnhanced Weather - Rainbows.espFellout - Full.espFellout - PipBoyLight.espFellout - Anchorage.espFellout - BrokenSteel.espFellout - PointLookout.espDestruction - Main.espDestruction - DLC.espDestruction - DLC - Statics.espDestruction - CP - Fellout.espStreetLights - Wasteland.espProject Beauty - Broken Steel.espProject Beauty - Point Lookout.espMart's Mutant Mod.espMart's Mutant Mod - DLC Anchorage.espMart's Mutant Mod - DLC The Pitt.espMart's Mutant Mod - DLC Broken Steel.espMart's Mutant Mod - DLC Point Lookout.espMart's Mutant Mod - DLC Zeta.espMart's Mutant Mod - Hunting & Looting.espMart's Mutant Mod - Natural Selection.espMart's Mutant Mod - Tougher Traders.espProject Beauty - MMM HD.espProject Beauty - Point Lookout MMM.espMerged Patch.espTotal active plugins: 79Total plugins: 79

My point is that you are misunderstanding the formulas(or maybe you're referring to the GECK Wiki, which is wrong most of the time anyways when it comes to settings).
It doesn't matter if you do:
fSneakMaxDistance: 2000
fSneakExteriorDistanceMult: 2

or

fSneakMaxDistance: 4000
fSneakExteriorDistanceMult: 1

The end result n exterior is always the same(4000 in this case). You would only be making interior and exterior detection abilities for NPCs the same, which is bad design.

The fSneakExteriorDistanceMult is applied to everything the same way fSneakMaxDistance is.

Basically every formula that has fSneakMaxDistance in it, actually has to say if player.IsInInterior=0 (fSneakMaxDistance*fSneakExteriorDistanceMult)