Okay, while replaying the game, i noticed some sketchy coincidences that could outline Baurus' role in the Oblivion crisis from the very beginning.

First off, after the Emperor was killed, he was absolutely certain that all you'd face ahead were rats and goblilns. How is the sole survivor, a rookie blade, certain of anything at that moment? You leave him. Alone. In the sewer. He's cool as a cucumber, though.

Then I think, well, he is young, he could easily also be into black magic. After all, Martin was rebellious around the same age, as is common. He also could have given the assassins their extensive knowledge of the escape route. They killed all the emperor's sons, then the emperor... but they don't attack Martin until after you tell Baurus about it.

Until you single-handedly save Kvatch, he basically just keeps playing his role. Afterward, he chooses the side of the guy who just laid waste to an entire army.

EDIT: The attack on Kvatch was blunt, poorly thought out, and unique from the attacks on the other heirs. Also, Baurus knew you took the Amulet to Jauffre. Is it a coincidence that the information Baurus knew first, the Mythic Dawn knew first as well?

I've heard crazier things.

But then why is he so helpful in helping you discover the mysteries of the Commentaries? When you meet up with him in the Imperial City, why does he make the first move against the Mythic Dawn member in the basemant instead of hiding to see if you live or die? Why does he offer to be the one to sit in for the meeting with the Mythic Dawn agent? Why does he, himself, train you in swordsmanship if he survives that encounter, thus furthering your chance of survival and lessening the chance of Mankar Camoran's success?

Baurus was my friend! He was with me from the start. He would not betray his Emperor.

I think Baurus is one of the good guys, for all of the reasons Velorien points out... but if we want to think conspiratorially about any of the Blades, what about Renault and Glenroy? They might have knowingly led Uriel into a trap, and they both die in the process, but that wouldn't matter to them if they were Mythic Dawn, since they'd be receiving immortality for their sacrifice.

I don't really believe that, either, but I'm just putting it out there.

1) To possibly see if you would follow the same path.
2) So the Mythic Dawn agent wouldn't out him as another agent.
3) Same as above, to ensure his secret is safe
4) As a rookie, he can't possibly have great technique. He must have been teaching you inferior skills.

1. Okay, fair enough. To further the argument against myself, he could also have thought that even if the player didn't join the Mythic Dawn, that it would eventually lead them to Lake Arrius Caverns where they would surely be killed when their identity was found out.
2. I can accept this one too, if we assume that maybe the Mythic Dawn agent was going to have a meeting with him or something.
3. This one I can't accept. He volunteers to sit in and the player can hide in the shadows and choose to never be seen. Even if the player never makes his or her self known, the Mythic Dawn are the ones who make the first move, and they will kill Baurus without question and then leave. It's obviously not a trap for the player, and there's no reason to put on the charade otherwise. Raven Camoran is the one in charge of initiations, he'd have to have been the one to initiate Baurus if he was truly a Mythic Dawn agent, so he would know who he was already.
4. Can't accept that either. You can say inferior skills if you want, but you get an increase to your Blade, Block, and Heavy Armor skills, so his training had to have been good.

But then why is he so helpful in helping you discover the mysteries of the Commentaries?

judas iscariot - he realizes later that he has done something far worse than 30 septims can repay.

many double agents kill their own, as part of the ruse. or worse, he attempts to pretend to kill his own - but it's poisoned with something that mimics deaths. help from the dark brotherhood, perhaps.

more evidence though. 'my sons are dead, i KNOW it'. the emperor was probably aware that there was a spy close to him but not who specifically. the fact that all of his guards survived meant that the assassin (being one of them) survived and his sons did not.

furthermore, baurus was carrying an extra torch - like he Knew someone extra would be coming. how many people carry extra torches, exactly? nobody else did because they knew how long the trip was and that their torches would last.

if baurus was MD (mythic dawn), it's possible that only the higher ups were aware. he might actually really have to fight for his life against the lower ranks. also, baurus is a trained swordsman - at least to the point where he can train others. likely, the MD were aware that he could handle the lower ranks that accidentally interfered. such as sleeper agents or other ilk that wouldn't or couldn't be contacted soon enough through their intelligence network.

he trains you swords as part of the ruse. if i'm an american spy in russia, i would buy vodka for the staff on st patrick's day. once he trains you, you implicitly trust him. another source of information that he just bought with a simple training session is far more valuable to the MD than someone with a slightly better knowledge of swords.

lake arrius could have been a complete setup. volumes 1 and 2 are easy to find. the volumes pointing to lake arrius are so rare there's no way to validate their authenticity. it could be that volumes 3 and 4 were planted on the bodies to point you to lake arrius. lake arrius could have gone rogue or have had a known spy in it. in which case, MD would want to eliminate it from the outside (via you) without anyone knowing. this goes back to the first case, if the emperor knew there was a spy, he'd conclude that this network was dangerous enough to warrant investigation at the least, meaning he's try to insert his own spy into their network.

how could they plant fake books on their own members? they don't. they tell the recruiting team to eliminate you. but to carry this book so that if they fail and die, the hero will be directed toward lake arrius. why do they attack baurus? because if the emperor was successful in getting his spy into the MD early, mankor would start to catch on that he had a leak. as a leader, he might even suspect that baurus was starting to go both ways and want him eliminated.

how do they mythic dawn know who YOU are? the only people who should think you are anyone out of the ordinary are the blades and the emperor. what happens at cloud ruler temple, a tightly guarded compound, should stay in cloud ruler temple. and yet, the MD are aware that you're working with martin and to have all sleeper agents hunt you down. who could've known that the emperor sent you? jauffre and baurus, the ONLY 2 people you told.

baurus seems to be everywhere the mythic dawn need him to be, at the right place at all the right times. something to keep in mind on your next play through.

I carry around as many torches as I can find.


Easy explanation for that. Who could've known, you ask? Every Mythic Dawn agent and every Dremora and intelligent lesser Daedra that you ever killed. When the Mythic Dawn members die, they go to Paradise, where they are still fully capable of informing Mankar Camoran about everything about you, and, under the constant torture that they so commonly endure, it's almost impossible that none of them would ever tell, and even if we assume that that small implausible possibility is actually what happened, the Dremora and lesser Daedra would not--and could not--withhold such information.


I could just as easy come up with a theory on why Emperor Uriel Septim VII himself was a traitor against his own Empire. Watch:

Brilliant view on the Emperor being the traitor Velorien!

The main problem I see with Baurus being a double-agent is at the end of the tutorial, everyone else is dead except for you and him. All he has to do is kill you, a simple 1st level prisoner, and the Amulet is his. Given that possession of the Amulet of Kings is crucial to the Mythic Dawn's plans, this would have been a traitors goal. There is no sense letting the PC go with the amulet just to arrange an attack on Weynon, where it will be better defended. He had it right there, as Faramir had the Ring, all he had to do was reach out and take it.

I don't think Baurus is a traitor, I fought too many battles at his side to believe he could have been working against me the whole time. SubRosa makes an excellent point about Baurus handing over the Amulet of Kings when, if he was a traitor, he would have slain the weak prisoner.
But to be honest, since my very first playthrough of Oblivion, I have believed there was indeed a traitor. In the countless hours I have put into Oblivion, I have not been able to rid myself of my suspicion of Jauffre...
Is it a coincidence that only two people, Jauffre and the Emperor, know of Martin's existence, and after the Emperor, is killed, the city in which the son resides is laid to waste by the formidable Daedra siege engine?
Is it a coincidence that the only the blades know about the prison escape route?
Is it a coincidence that after you have given Jauffre the amulet he desires, he sends you on a suicide mission to Kvatch?
Is it a coincidence that after you trust the amulet of kings to Jauffre, Weynon Priory comes under "attack" and the amulet is taken?
Is it a coincidence that during the attack on Weynon Priory, the assassins only show an intent to harm Jauffre when the player enters the cathedral?

and that is the only like the first 2 quests

Jauffre had access to absolutely everything necessary to either make or break the empire, and whenever a responsibility fell upon his shoulders, it always ended up being a step towards breaking.

Conspiracies i tell you! CONSPIRACIES! Nah but i don't think Baurus was a rat. I'm leaning more towards nobody. Just the fact that the mythic dawn has spies everywhere, so it shouldn't be so hard to find info.

Baurus is clear. But that Martin guy certainly made some pact with Mehrunes Dagon.

Martin has nothing to gain by letting the Kingdom fall to waste.

But the attack on Kvatch could well have been a retreival mission, but why?

I agree 100%! What would be stopping Baurus from running your MC through, taking the amulet and leave your corpse to rot? If he had to explain why there's an escaped prisoner near the body of the emperor, he'd make an excuse like "I saw him killing the emperor and metted out justice." After all, who's gonna believe more? The dead lowly prisoner or a Blades member? He had that golden opportunity. Knife the prisoner and take the amulet.

If Baurus were seriously an agent of the MD, then he's the worst agent in history.

Well... Baurus first asked you about the Amulet, and then, when you mentioned that there was another heir, he realized that he had to let you live, so you would lead the MD to Martin.

The other spy, Maborel, later overheard you talking to Jauffre, sent word that Martin was in Kvatch, and he offered you the slowest nag in Tamriel to ride on, to be certain that you would not make it there, to warn Martin, before the MD could sack the place.

:wink_smile:

Interesting theory.

But what about the fact that Maborel always dies.... You would have to be a better fighter to be a MD sleeper agent.

And the slowest nag in Tamriel is still faster than walking.

That always did strike me as odd, the way he just stays behind. I had a thief character about a year ago who did a lot of exploring of the sewers (so she could escape the guards). She wound up going all the way back to where she left Baurus. Since she never did any quests (not one) he was still right there, "guarding" the Emperor's body. This happened weeks after I created her, btw.



But aren't the Mythic Dawn based underneath the Imperial City? Maybe they had some problems getting all the way to Kvatch? I'm not an expert on this stuff, so I'm just asking here.



You might have something here. Good point.

Nope, Lake Arrius Caverns. They just use the Sewers and meeting places and stuff.

MD agents are reborn in "Paradise" when they die.



Yes, but a heck of a lot easier to keep track of than somebody sneaking there on foot. I'd bet that most players who accept the horse (on their first play-through, at least) take the road, rather than the much shorter route south through the forest.

:wink_smile:

But you wouldn't want to go to paradise knowing your job was only half done would you?

On my first playthrough I did not know, so I did not ask him for it. Meaning he didn't give me the nag... You would think he would make sure he gave it to you if that was the plan.

In my game, I've found that the MD agents are more than willing to go to paradise as failures. They take to attacking my heavily armed character, in broad daylight, in full view of the city guards, without a snowball's chance in Hades of winning.

As for giving you the nag, he couldn't very well run up to you and force you to take it, could he? I mean, he probably had a GPS Tracking Device hidden under the saddle, all ready for you to show up, and everything, and he was So Disappointed that he didn't have the opportunity to foist it on you...

:wink_smile:

Yeah good bloody work my friend a tracking device its what based in some form of medievil society/ time so I dont think a GPS is going to work very well unless its made out of some wood blessed by the Talos or even a Daedra (Malekith probably... he isnt very fun at parties) and in relation to the nag he should automaticaly come up to you and give it to you freely Also if anyone is a traitor its the Emperor for leaving me this [censored] ass quest with no explanation in the end it wasnt about Martain, it wasnt about Mehrunes Dagon it was about screwing the main protagonist over hahaha.

It's a vast conspiracy to get you to keep playing the game... bliviongate:

Except, even before you talk to Jauffre the gate is there? And the village is destroyed?

As stated, if he would have killed you and taken the amulet they hardly would have needed to kill Martin! One measly person who doesnt even know who he is.


Reason why he isnt counter agent: If he killed you in the tutorial he would have had the amulet. He could go to Jauffre HIMSELF being a blade, say that the emporer wants him to get the heir. Then go and kill martin.

You couldn't know that without going there. If that's true, then why do the people there tell you that the attack was "last night"?



...Who somehow managed to survive a Great Gate attack on Kvatch, by merely being inside a chapel...Who admits to knowledge of Daedric Magic...Who accepts the word of an anonymous bozo who tells him that he is the emperor's son...



I don't know how it goes in your game, but my "prisoner" usually takes a pretty active hand in attempting to defend the Emperor, prior to the assassination. My "prisoner" is usually still holding Captain Renault's sword. Meanwhile, Baurus has usually taken a bit of damage in the previous fight, and may very well have his doubts about standing up to somebody that the obviously psychic Emperor had chosen as his champion.

(Some of us are taking this rather seriously, aren't we?) :wink_smile:

I did go there before talking to Jauffre. And the city was still sacked.

It wasnt a great gate. And honestly, what young people wouldn't like a bit of power? He isn't an individual case. An anonymous bozo that (In my game) just closed an oblivion gate single handedly just to tell him that.

Are you seriously trying to say you could have taken baurus? In my game I actually tried to fight him. He killed me in one hit.
Hes a trained swordsman. And idk about you, but most of the people in this game seem pretty cocky about fighting you. Even after all the stuff you've done. So awesome, you have a sword that has 2 base damage, no armor worth mentioning. Baurus wins.