I understand that people have beef with essential NPC's and I understand that some believe it to be hand-holding. I understand it, respect it and even agree with it... up to a certain extent. I believe that essentiality of a few NPC's is important to have and keep, not to protect me from my stupidity but from theirs.

With the schedules and the some times suicidal behaviors of NPCs all around if the essential characters didn't have essential status than half the time they'd be dead long before I ever encounter them or need them for whatever reason.

And sometimes, yes, I need it to protect me from myself as well as from the NPC's. There was a play through in which I was hired to clear out the vampires of Bloodcrust Cavern, by Hasildor. I managed to get the other Vampire Hunters to be whipped out, and I moped up the surviving vampires (a truly evil character should never get their hands more dirty than needed, playing both sides against each other and seizing victory is an essential practice).

On my way out of the cavern I saw none other than Hasildor lurking around in the darkness. Naturally I assumed it was a vampire mage I somehow managed to miss and so I struck! Wham-bam-thank you ma'am and down he went like a sack of potatoes and then I received a message stating that Hasildor had lost consciousness. I was never more grateful for essential characters than I was in that moment.

In Morrowind there were essentials, they could die but it said an essential died and recommended reverting to a save game. I liked that system better. Becasue you can just reload, I think everyone should be killable.

Essential NPCs never really bothered me. I just found it humorous personally in Morrowind if you killed an essential NPC and that message would pop up.

that's completely different. the essential NPC system was incorporated into Oblivion less to prevent you from killing an important NPC and more to keep OTHER NPCs from killing an important NPC. Radiant AI still likes to go berserk sometimes and quests can break really easily through no fault of your own.

I think it should only be for when you're escorting them. Or perhaps an option to kill an unconscious essential character.

Again, I would like to point out it's also to protect you against the NPC's stupidity, you did read that part right? I remember one play through I was lurking through a dungeon around Dive Rock when I received a random message that an essential character had lost consciousness (I can't remember with certainty which one, but I think it was the countess of Bruma).

They could easily make it so other NPCs can't kill an essential NPC. Only you can kill them.

I'm sort of ambivalent about essential characters.

I've modded my Oblivion so that Shum gro-Yarug is essential, and he's fallen off of that bridge to Castle Skingrad at least three times since I did that (judging by the three times I've been wandering around Skingrad and gotten the "Shum gro-Yarug is unconscious" message). To me, that's necessary because he falls off that damned bridge through no fault of mine and if (when) he does, it makes it impossible to buy Rosethorn Hall. I'd prefer that the game was set up in such a way that he wouldn't fall off (actually it's through, but still) the bridge, but since that wasn't done, making him essential is a relatively easy fix.

At the same time though, I think that if some player runs around indiscriminately killing NPCs and ends up killing an "essential" NPC, he should suffer the consequences. I have absolutely no sympathy at all for a player who rushes around madly killing NPCs, only to discover that he's killed someone he would've been better off not killing. That's the breaks of the game - if you don't want to suffer the consequences of killing an important character, then you need to be a bit more careful about who you kill. That really seems blindingly obvious.

I'd prefer a system like Morrowind's, where you get a message that this character is essential to a quest and by killing him you've eliminated the ability to do that quest, with a suggestion that you reload a save, but then we'd have to listen to complaints from all those people who still haven't learned to save early and often. I have no sympathy for them either, but the sheer din of their frustration would probably be unbearable, so I suppose the best solution, all in all, is to retain essential characters pretty much the same way as they exist in Oblivion.


Edited to add - I like Liu Bei's idea above. If it could be set up so that NPCs can't die accidentally or at the hands of other NPCs, but can be killed by the player, that'd be fine with me.

Also to add, on a wholly personal and diversionary note, that I like Liu Bei's handle and avatar. Romance of the Three Kingdoms FTW.....

I remember one instance and I woke up to Lachance's presence. After he was done with his stupid spiel he walked away... and took a fall off Dive Rock to his death. It forever closed any hope of getting into the Dark Brotherhood... care to revise a little bit or admit the essential status is, well, essential?

Hey, I remember going to do the master lockpicking quest in the Prison and before I could even speak to the NPC, the guards came along and slaugthered that khajiit's backside for no real tangable reason... quest failed: an essential character has died... and that was in oblivion.

I prefer not to know wich NPC might be important before I start a storyline.
It makes a place seem less real (or interesting. Less to discover), and it makes all the NPC's without a little crown thing look like filler.
I would prefer a message when I kill a main quest important NPC, and I would like it if normally non hostile NPC's were able to get knocked unconscious, but not killable unless by the PC.
Not just quest essential ones for that, because in Oblivion it really bugged me that all travelling NPC's were mostly dead by level 15, unless you mainly used fast travel.
If someone gets knocked down by a bear, say, they would become unconscious. The bear would wander off, or attack the PC, and after some time the NPC would get up again.

Of course, these problems only occur if the PC is in the immediate area.

Well you should protect them better
If they die they should stay dead, you can reload a saved game if needed. It makes escorting missions more challenging, if the escortee is invincible why bother doing the quest?
Also, they can still put in a message advising you an essential is dead.

yeah, like i said. Only YOU should be able to kill an essential, not gravity (unless you pushed him).

I wasn't involved in any escort quest and (if I'm recalling the right NPC) the countess isn't involved in any escort quests. So what, I'm suppose to suffer the consequences of an NPC dying of no fault of my own?


Unless pushing them is a scripted event (ala that quest in SI) than the game would have no way to tell if you pushed the NPC or if they just glitched and fell on their own accord.

Liu Bei's idea is probably the best way to handle this. I'm sure it can't be too hard to make the game check what killed an essential NPC, and if it wasn't the player, simply knock them unconscious rather than kill them. I think it would also help to take out the "so-and-so has been knocked unconscious" messages, since that just draws more attention to the fact that there are essential NPCs.

What I would really like as well though is just an option to turn essential NPCs on and off, just in case I ever decide to play a realistic or hardcoe-type playthough (which I often do).

Its a radiant world. Anything can happen. I like the fact that a politician can be killed/assassinated and everyone suffers the consequences. Sure you might miss some quests, but then again their successor can assign you quests, it would make the world much more alive. I hope this is what Skyrim is like.

I don't think it would be too hard for them to make sure you were responsible for their death. you would of had to touch them really recently before they started falling for the game to know you pushed him off.

if you touch him, and all of a sudden he glitches off the side of the cliff, then thats just bad luck, reload man, the game shouldn't be expected to glitch like that anyway.

If the radiant story is what it's cracked up to be than I won't mind essential status be removed for the most part. Though I'm concerned that the successor might treat you as though you killed their predecessor even though said predecessor might have gotten killed when two guards get into a fight randomly (like they commonly do outside of Bruma for discernible reason, and I have seen NPCs accidentally get caught up in that... not a pretty picture).

Stainless coded Carmageddon II 12 years ago to determine whether a car went over a cliff on its own or because you pushed it over. I have no doubt that Beth could handle the same minor task.

I'm split on this issue. Yes, I would love for there to be no essential NPC's, it's seriously immersion breaking and game killing. However, I think I would've been more pissed if half the essential NPC's died before I even talked to them (or durring a quest for that matter)! I mean, in Morrowind it wasn't a problem, you had to 'decide' to kill an NPC for him to die, but in Skyrim and Oblivion, it'll be killer.

So I say keep essential NPC's, it's a necesary evil.

Question: To all those claiming it breaks immersion, do you just play as psychopathic murderers who must kill all that they meet or what's going on for the essential statuses to even get in your way? I'm just curious. I've only noticed when I go on one of my unofficial "tests" of my own character's power.

This can all be avoided by simply making Essential NPC's immune to all damage except from the PC.
Therefore, I can kill whatever I want, but no one else can.

NPCs should essential as long as there is a message that appears if you kill him/her if he/she is related to an essential quest. Better yet, if you kill an unrespawnable NPC then a message should alert you that you did so, and whether or not (s)he is related to any uncompleted quests, an 'essential' quest, or non at all. I feel if I kill a single NPC the world just got a lot less...alive. There are so few NPCs in the game that killing any of them makes me feeling like I killed a quarter of the population. At least every NPC has a purpose. That's what really counts.

Can anyone please explain to me why they want to be able to kill every NPC? Isn't giving in to genocidal urges counter productive to the game?

Not if your character is a serial killer. Also, it FUN. so why not? There's not a single good reason to keep "essentials" immune to death from a PC IMO.

I'd love it if there was a backdoor main-quest too, where even if you kill everyone except one certain person, you can always finish the Main Quest (like Yagrum in Morrowind)