why can't levels be removed entirely? : V - Skyrim

» Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:40 am

Theres a difference between "Role Play" and "Role Playing Game"

the "role play" logic can abide by anything. When Im playing ArmA 2 I *could* say Im role playing a soldier, when Im playing Goldeneye im "role playing" James Bond, etc, etc. That does not make ArmA or Goldeneye role playing games.

To be a role playing game, it requires that the player's character does not abide by the player's skills and abilities. The character has their own skills and inherit abilities, and it's up to the player to control the character, and the player's overall effectiveness in quests will be defined by how they control their character, and what the characters strengths and weaknesses are in comparison to those of other characters in the game world.

Yes I could role play 007 I know this.

In the game I try to build my stats based around the persona for my character in game and I am sure others do this as well. Also the scenarios that my character interacts with the world farther shape them.

» Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:39 am

You're equivocating.

Its not misleading, Im giving a name to a representation with variables. You can call it spelunking if you want. Im leveling up my character, in the second definition. Giving arise to differing planes of scale.

» Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:06 pm

Because lvling is sweet... You get too pick stats, skills, spell etc... I don't like those kind of games where everything is picked before you... Removes the RPG element

» Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:45 am

I like the base traits and or levels for RPG's if that is nostalgia I will cling to it. I love change but cahnge in a way to put the core elements in.

I was just saying I would hate a pure action Elder Scrolls, if this became TES: Call of Duty I fear I would be scarred for life. :cryvaultboy:

I understand the sentiment of course. Look at it this way, sometimes mechanics don't work. Classes really didn't matter much in the end for Morrowind/Oblivion. They simply added +5 points to 2 attributes, modified the rate of skill development (Guardian Stones and the new leveling system fix this), and determine your starting skill levels.

» Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:01 am

It sounds like you want nostalgia. Or perhaps you are afraid of change. Innovation is the future, don't be afraid of change!

I've never liked that argument; it implies that all change is good, and that the 'malcontent' is being stubborn, and doesn't know what's for their own good; and its bogus IMO.

If I want a tool for a job ~like pipe wrench... I will not be pleased if they try to sell me on a crescent wrench (or vice-grips); that's just not suitable ~even if it is more popular.

In games, if I want a certain style (especially in an established series that I previously liked very much), then changes that omit or lessen what I enjoyed in the series are not good changes, and not something that I (or anyone else) should be ... well heck, the word is "mocked" about, for disliking.

» Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:26 am

I understand the sentiment of course. Look at it this way, sometimes mechanics don't work. Classes really didn't matter much in the end for Morrowind/Oblivion. They simply added +5 points to 2 attributes, modified the rate of skill development (Guardian Stones and the new leveling system fix this), and determine your starting skill levels.

Yes but that does not mean chop them out improve them fix them make them better. Just because they removed class's does not mean I am not going to shape and mold my characters towards certain class's and maybe the classic class title for the older TES games.

» Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:15 am

I've never liked that argument; it implies that all change is good, and that the 'malcontent' is being stubborn, and doesn't know what's for their own good; and its bogus IMO.

If I want a tool for a job ~like pipe wrench... I will not be pleased if they try to sell me on a crescent wrench (or vice-grips); that's just not suitable ~even if it is more popular.

In games, if I want a certain style (especially in an established series that I previously liked very much), then changes that omit or lessen what I enjoyed in the series are not good changes, and not something that I (or anyone else) should be ... well heck, the word is "mocked" about.

The premise of your argument is that the alternative is illogical (crescent wrench for a pipe wrench). Yet levels haven't existed in all rpgs.

And I am certainly not mocking you. Not at all. If anything is close to being mocked, it's the somewhat narrow thought that levels are necessary.

Yes but that does not mean chop them out improve them fix them make them better. Just because they removed class's does not mean I am not going to shape and mold my characters towards certain class's and maybe the classic class title for the older TES games.

1) Sometimes it IS best to do away with something rather than fix it. Developers recognized that by removing classes, players could switch roles on the same character instead of starting over again. Someone playing a warrior who decided they didn't enjoy combat could start practicing Magic.

2) You're certainly free to do so! I know I plan to.

» Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:50 pm

I've never liked that argument; it implies that all change is good, and that the 'malcontent' is being stubborn, and doesn't know what's for their own good; and its bogus IMO.

If I want a tool for a job ~like pipe wrench... I will not be pleased if they try to sell me on a crescent wrench (or vice-grips); that's just not suitable ~even if it is more popular.

In games, if I want a certain style (especially in an established series that I previously liked very much), then changes that omit or lessen what I enjoyed in the series are not good changes, and not something that I (or anyone else) should be ... well heck, the word is "mocked" about.

Yes thank you we should not have drastic change forced down to the bottom of our stomachs. Not all change is good I also agree with that.

I love the anology, it would be like asking for a blow torch and get a flame thrower, agreed it would be very damaging to the task or goal.

Things should not be drastically altered to any successful franchises in any way form or media, it should be improved never lessoned.

» Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:30 pm

Because this is an RPG, not an action game.

no, its an Action-RPG

» Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:30 pm

The premise of your argument is that the alternative is illogical (crescent wrench for a pipe wrench). Yet levels haven't existed in all rpgs.

And I am certainly not mocking you. Not at all. If anything is close to being mocked, it's the somewhat narrow thought that levels are necessary.

Levels or stats/skills work great in any RPG.

» Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:48 am

The premise of your argument is that the alternative is illogical (crescent wrench for a pipe wrench). Yet levels haven't existed in all rpgs.

This is true... but not all methods should be copied into all series ~the series aspect is a defining one and IMO should be retained across all titles in the series. A [radical] change of the core gameplay warrants a spin-off or a new series.

And I am certainly not mocking you. Not at all. If anything is close to being mocked, it's the somewhat narrow thought that levels are necessary.

Its figurative. Many times those same words show up verbatim in other posts, and often times they are mocking. :shrug:

» Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:59 am

no, its an Action-RPG

The only actiony thing about ES games is that they are in real time. Other than that, they are RPGs, that rely on character skill/ability more than player reflex time.

» Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:23 am

Levels or stats/skills work great in any RPG.

And safe. And eventually, quite boring.

Let us say every Final Fantasy had the same mechanics from number 1.

I would've quit before 7.

» Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:20 pm

The only actiony thing about ES games is that they are in real time. Other than that, they are RPGs, that rely on character skill/ability more than player reflex time.

I would really like that ~but I don't see it... Can you give an example?
(I played Oblivion to 26th level, so hows' this work in Oblivion?)
*I'm not doubting, I just don't see it and am open to examples.

» Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:14 am

Levels exist because they are a way to quickly and instantly show the relative power of the player. It's one of those realities of UI design.

» Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:57 am

I would really like that ~but I don't see it... Can you give an example?
(I played Oblivion to 26th level, so hows' this work in Oblivion?)
*I'm not doubting, I just don't see it and am open to examples.

Well, my example isn't an ES game, but Demon's Souls is real time and requires skill. Reflexes help, but aren't necessary.

» Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:01 am

I would really like that ~but I don't see it... Can you give an example?
(I played Oblivion to 26th level, so hows' this work in Oblivion?)
*I'm not doubting, I just don't see it and am open to examples.

I try to kill X high leveled enemy/NPC with crap stats and Im dead. Doesnt matter what Ive done reflex wise. Go into any situation ill prepared and you can be defeated regardless of what you do reflex wise.

» Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:32 am

To be a role playing game, it requires that the player's character does not abide by the player's skills and abilities. The character has their own skills and inherit abilities, and it's up to the player to control the character, and the player's overall effectiveness in quests will be defined by how they control their character, and what the characters strengths and weaknesses are in comparison to those of other characters in the game world.

You're right, but TES never tried to be a 100% RPG. It's always been an action RPG.

The only actiony thing about ES games is that they are in real time. Other than that, they are RPGs, that rely on character skill/ability more than player reflex time.

Not really.

Even in Daggerfall with the most skills, that is pretty much only true if you stand still and face the enemy and let the dodge skill do the work while slashing eachother. As soon you move around the enemy and so on, the player skill take a noticeably larger chunk of the gameplay.

» Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:24 am

Well, my example isn't an ES game, but Demon's Souls is real time and requires skill. Reflexes help, but aren't necessary.

Yeah, but he said TES ~on reflection, I've thought of an example... and its the acrobatics skill (now removed in TESV). Acrobatics improvement led to higher jumping ~~ability~~ height, and less damage from falls ~and this made a lot of sense; but its gone now, as I understand it.

I try to kill X high leveled enemy/NPC with crap stats and Im dead. Doesnt matter what Ive done reflex wise. Go into any situation ill prepared and you can be defeated regardless of what you do reflex wise.

Are there any high level enemies in Oblivion? (They all scale to the PC ~I thought.)

» Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:24 am

I'm not sure what to think, one the one hand a system without levels may work just fine, on the other hand I question whether I'd find it any fun. I've always enjoyed the level-up process, the sense of progression, planning upgrade points in advance etc., it's always been a fun part of character development for me. There was a loose sense of achievement when you attain the appropriate level to use an item you've been carrying around for ages.

» Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:51 am

Even in Daggerfall with the most skills, that is pretty much only true if you stand still and face the enemy and let the dodge skill do the work while slashing eachother. As soon you move around the enemy and so on, the player skill take a noticeably larger chunk of the gameplay.

But if I go ill prepared I will die regardless of reflex. If I could tackle every obstacle with no character variables it would be an action game, no? You fight a Vamp in Dagger with low stats and you die.

Are there any high level enemies in Oblivion? (They all scale to the PC ~I thought.)

And hence the devil that is level scaling. You didnt have this problem in Morrow, all you got was "OPed" character during "end leveling". With this Fallout approach to leveling I sense more defined balance, but similer to Morrowinds and Fallouts.

» Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:34 am

Lock picking. In Oblivion, it was all about rhythm and timing; and it was me picking the lock.

(Refresh my memory... was there a skill for that (like I think there was), and did it affect the 'Force Lock' option?
(Does that qualify as picking?)

If I played a master thief, and did not know how to play the lock pick game, would that cripple my master thief in their ability to pick locks?
(Or would I not be able to play a master thief without being good at the lock pick game?)

» Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:10 am

But if I go ill prepared I will die regardless of reflex. If I could tackle every obstacle with no character variables it would be an action game, no? You fight a Vamp in Dagger with low stats and you die.

It's quite possible to defeat a vampire in Daggerfall with low stats. You just need a lot of room so you can run backwards after each hit. And some luck

Lock picking. In Oblivion, it was all about rhythm and timing; and it was me picking the lock.

(Refresh my memory... was there a skill for that (like I think there was), and did it affect the 'Force Lock' option?
(Does that qualify as picking?)

If I played a master thief, and did not know how to play the lock pick game, would that cripple my master thief in their ability to pick locks?

In Oblivion if there were more than one tumbler, I pretty much always just used the auto-picklock button thingy. So it depended on my security skill, and it worked rather well that way (and I played as a thief). I did waste a whole lot of lockpicks while getting better and better, though. So it took some time to get a high security skill.

» Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:55 am

Lock picking. In Oblivion, it was all about rhythm and timing; and it was me picking the lock.

(Refresh my memory... was there a skill for that (like I think there was), and did it affect the 'Force Lock' option?
(Does that qualify as picking?)

If I played a master thief, and did not know how to play the lock pick game, would that cripple my master thief in their ability to pick locks?
(Or would I not be able to play a master thief without being good at the lock pick game?)

In OB it is true that you could pick a very hard lock with a low security skill, but thats only one aspect of the game. Something that was changed in Fallout, and a change I think we'll see in Sky. Auto pick? Sure, thats the turn based RPG elements, totally dependent on stats that make up the RPG (like your talking about).

» Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:30 am

In OB it is true that you could pick a very hard lock with a low security skill, but thats only one aspect of the game. Something that was changed in Fallout, and a change I think we'll see in Sky. Auto pick? Sure, thats the turn based RPG elements, totally dependent on stats that make up the RPG (like your talking about).

Auto-pick would not be my idea of turnbased* ~Neither is VATS for that matter.

*Arx Fatalis (for example) was / is, a realtime first person RPG with PC based lock picking, and he breaks picks, or opens locks based solely on his skill at the task.