I've seen many people on here say that Sithis is just a force like gravity, and therefore cannot be worshiped as a God. But If Sithis is to be considered the Primordial chaos from which everything came of, then couldn't "worship" be seen as a desire to return to that state before creation? Now of course i don't mean regular worship like that of the Daedric princes or like the Dark Brotherhood does by going around killing people, but instead Sithis could possibly be considered some form of Godhead like in gnosticism, where one through various rituals, meditation, and initiation awakens the spirit within and is returned to this "state" the becoming of one with God. Of course, this God is beyond feelings, emotions and consciousness as we know it.

Any thoughts?

Sithis is like looking at your own shadow and calling it "Shadow Erik". Sithis is just another name for chaos, in a sense.

The Dark Brotherhood thinks it's worshiping Sithis, but by talking to the actual members of the DB, you'll realize that the god they worship has nothing to do with the concept of Sithis. The Dark Brotherhood is an offshoot of the Morag Tong, which worships Mephala. Now, after centuries, possibly millenia of blasphemy against their patron god, they've been tricked into worshiping Mephala once more, even if they don't know it.

I've thought about the Night Mother being Mephala in disguise, but I doubt the devs would do that without providing at least one or two clues. My only real theory is that the Night Mother, who had been killed, went insane by an equal measure of Mephala's scheming and Sheogorath's direct involvement. Let's not forget that Sheogorath is described as being a Sithis-Shaped Hole.

Surely to look up the infinite chaos outside of Everything would be enough to bring anyone to their knees.

Sithis is difficult. Sithis was what was before there was. Therefore it is divorced entirely from existence, which we can understand as normal, and also from non-existence, which we can understand as the antithesis of the normal state, because it is not of either state. Therefore, something so divorced from realms acceptable to human comprehension experiencing it directly would almost certainly break a person's mind. It has no sentience, no thought, no desire, no feeling. It does not even exist, but without not existing.

I actually think that might not be it. But it sure sounds cool whether I'm right or not.

Oh, Sithis can most certainly be named "God" and worshiped. As can gravity, or an apple. I think the crux of the issue is that Sithis, unlike Mephala, doesn't care if you worship it and won't grant you boons.

I don't think you're getting my point here, see my comparison with gnosticism. It is not a god in the normal sense that has a physical shape and a human like mind it it goes far beyond that it is more a state of "beeing" if you understand what I mean. I can see clear connections with gnosticism here and compare Sithis with for example the dragon Tiamat in Babylonian mythology.

Sithis isn't conscious, while Mephala is. That's the main difference. Sithis is just uncontrollable chaos that naturally flows in the world, while Mephala is more of a controller of her sphere and overall 'god'. Calling Sithis a god would be like calling Nature a god. The natural flow of the world isn't what's godly, really what being controls it.

Where does it say that Sithis isn't conscious?

Quotes from the dark brotherhood explain "Sithis was the huge black nothingness that existed before creation." He's basically a representation of Chaos and Darkness, not a real being.

It could still be conscious.

I mean from it came everything. So it could be considered something more than "nothing".

I suppose, but it's hard to consciously control all the chaos and darkness of the universe in one fell swoop. I'm sure it flows naturally, rather than consciously.

Didn't sleep for a while, so this will be a bit incoherent.

What you describe Sithis as is pretty much it actually.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/source-chaos
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-sithis

Sithis is an an ideal and gets treated as such.

What sets it apart from the gods is that it isn't a like an et'Ada. Going by the Altmeri version of the Monomyth, Sithis with Anuiel is half of the interplay that creates existence. As such you can't observe Sithis as anything there is to observe is in reaction with Anuiel, there is only the interplay. Et'Ada on the other hand are specific manifestations of that interplay.

Hence the shortcut to Sithis being like gravity.

I suppose the problem isn't so much that Sithis isn't a god by real world standards -- which are ridiculously low -- but rather that in a fantasy setting the gods, even as concepts, are real and observable. This creates certain expectations.

The statue of Sithis is a nice escape though, it couldn't scream Lorkhan louder then a thu'um.

Actually, nothing really came from Sithis- it all came from Anu the Everything- which created an opposing force to Sithis (Anuiel), the soul of Anuiel, and the soul of all living things. It's entirely possible that Anu even created Sithis- the lore isn't clear about Anu.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sithis

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Anuiel

If I follow your thought ( I hope I get this right as its been awhile ).

You think sithis is the whole, the entity that is so beyond comprehension that it is in fact a gods god.
Something that is and was and will be, and following gnosticism the gods and daedra are just figments of it concious.
A part of its power given thought, but not understanding of what it is, like an organ or limb compared to the cells that inhabit mundas.

They believe themselves to be gods but in fact are just higher reaching shadows in the mind of a true "god" who is beyond anything.
Which could also be the reason for the link to Mephala and Sheogorath the daedra of secrets and insanity..
For what could be more secretive and insane than realising all gods are just mad, jelous delusions believing themselves to be the true powers behind everything.

So have I understood your point, or just confusing it?

And without Sithis, nothing would have came from Anu - that is, everything would have stayed one thing, rather than becoming distinguished things (which is the whole point of everything).

And without Anu, everything would be in a constant state of flux- anything that was created would almost immedately be destroyed or changed so much that it no longer resembeled what it once was.

We're pretty much at a point where we can't make good arguments for or against; the lore isn't clear about the actual relationship between Sithis and Anu- it's possible tha Anu created both Sithis and Anuiel (although the lore denies this according to the Wiki entry.) Fact is, we can't really say anything difinitive about the primeval force of Sithis and Anuiel beyond that they simply exist and represent the polar opposites- static vs. change, good vs. evil, light vs. dark, creation vs. destruction, Yin vs. Yang...

However, if one would worship Sithis as the actual entity, they would also need to worship Anuiel as the actual entity, as one would be meaningless without the other- the Yin/Yang dichotomy, basically. I would imagine that worship of Sithis and Anuiel would be more along the lines of something closer to "tapping into" what the interaction of these two forces want, and to simply "go with the flow" to achieve some sort of inner peace.

Basically, something similar to most religions that originated in China and/or Japan.

If Anu is the Everything, then Sithis must be an aspect of it, right?

Folks keep your myths straight.

It is:

Anu and Padomay generally speaking.

or:

by Altmeri Monomyth just Anu whit limits all the conceivable thoughts Anuiel uses Sithis. Which makes them cheating bastards.

or:

Anu and Padomay who's souls respectively are Anuiel and Sithis. Which is what Vehk came up with in his teachings.

or:

The concept, the other, is a lie. As by Sermons.

First off, you didn't refute my point or restate your own point, you just stated something random. You began by saying that nothing came from Sithis, but everything came from Anu. I responded by saying that without Sithis nothing could have come from Anu (which means that at least indirectly things do come from Sithis). You respond by saying that without Anu everything is in a state of flux, which is both untrue and beside the point.

What happens without Anu is irrelevant both because the discussion was concerning what happens without Sithis and because nothing can happen without Anu. If Anu is Everything (as you say in your first post), then how can everything be in flux without Anu (as you say in your second post) - afterall, if Anu is everything and you take away Anu then there is nothing left to be in flux. Sithis is the cause of the flux, Anu is what its causing to flux.

Wiki is lame, you shouldn't use it. Go to the source texts and draw your own conclusions. I can say plenty of definite things about the primeval forces, most likely because I'm not relying on the wiki entry.

Both http://www.imperial-library.info/content/oblivion-sithis, http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-monomyth-altmeri-heart-world.

--"Sithis is the start of the house. Before him was nothing, but the foolish Altmer have names for and revere this nothing. That is because they are lazy slaves. Indeed, from the Sermons, 'stasis asks merely for itself, which is nothing.' Sithis sundered the nothing and mutated the parts, fashioning from them a myriad of possibilities. These ideas ebbed and flowed and faded away and this is how it should have been."
--"Anuiel, as all souls, was given to self-reflection, and for this he needed to differentiate between his forms, attributes, and intellects. Thus was born Sithis, who was the sum of all the limitations Anuiel would utilize to ponder himself."

Sithis is the force that limits and divides (which are the same thing). It sunders the nothing - which is in reality one thing, but when there is only one thing there might as well be nothing. Anuiel limits/divides himself and Sithis being born is the natural consequence of this, because that's what Sithis is, the force that limits and divides. Whether you want to say that Sithis was born and divided everything or whether everything was divided and thus Sithis was born doesn't matter because this is all before linear time where everything happens at once.

I suppose you'll go unto Sharmat Dagoth-Ur as a best friend.

Honesly, I don't see why there are still "WTF is Sithis LOL!" threads popping up. It's not that difficult to understand when you don't imagine Sithis as an entity at all but an esoteric concept passed down from Ehlnofey and Aldmeri tradition, and like everything that old, every race has their own differing views upon it. The only problem here is that the concept of existential nothingness has never been fully fleshed out. Why? because it's not a universal entity that creeps through the collective unconscious like Shor, Lorkhan, or Akatosh. Every race is going to have their own opinion about what "Nothing" is. Some will embrace nothingness as the origin from which all things began (e.g. the Aldmer). Others will see it as a chaotic inevitability (e.g. the Yokudans).

Really, there should have been an in-game book plainly stating, without any philosophical filigree, that Sithis is not a god/ancestor/et'ada, just to nip these threads in the bud.

The short answer:

When Sithis gives me a reward for a quest, it will become a "god". Until then it is just a non-sentient force.

Absolutely.

But then if we make that the norm they'll be nothing left to discuss. I'd prefer reoccurring topics than no topics because everything is blunt.

I agree; I found this discussion very interesting. It almost sounds like Sithis and Anuiel are like the interdependent movements of the Tao: Yin and Yang—each bringing the other (and by that, everything we know as 'the world') into existence.

I outta make an Elder Scrolls Lore Forums drinking game.

Take one shot every time you see:

-Is Sithis a god?
-Is Vivec talking about his [censored]?
-Am I Sheogorath now?
-What is mantling?
-Oblivion has bad lore!
-Dragon Break WTF!!!

I think we could also add:
-What's chim?