Why can you kill Vivic but not Dagoth Ur? : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Fri May 27, 2011 7:48 am

I mean Viv and Dag had the same thing happen to them,

So why is Dagoth Ur immortal (Even when he is slain) but Vivic is just an amazing spell caster?

» Fri May 27, 2011 2:34 pm

Gameplay mechanics.

If you were a real live person in TES and tried to kill Vehk, you wouldn't be able to.

» Fri May 27, 2011 7:25 am

Gameplay mechanics.

If you were a real live person in TES and tried to kill Vehk, you wouldn't be able to.

Ah.

» Fri May 27, 2011 7:28 pm

Someone shoot me down, but is it because of the heart of Lorkhan is not good, and those in the Tribunal were using it for good cause, whereas Dagoth Ur was usign it for the cause intended, and therefore it made him more powerful?

Seriosuly I know I am missing soemthign there, I just wanted to make an educated guess, to see how close I am.

*shot down*

» Fri May 27, 2011 4:20 pm

Put simply, using the Heart is going make you spacey and dangerous. No doubt though, that the Tribunal's aims were noble and charitable, and from a certain point of view so were Dagoth Ur's. It's just the method really that makes it good or bad.

» Fri May 27, 2011 4:20 pm

Vivec had not entered the Heart Chamber to reinvigorate himself with Divine power since back in the 2nd Era. Dagoth Ur, on the other hand, was standing right next to the Heart of Lorkhan, bound to it by rituals of his own design. Once "unbound" after striking the Heart with Sunder and Keening, Dagoth Ur is much, much easier to kill than Vivec.

___TWM

» Fri May 27, 2011 10:09 am

Clsoe but no cigar... Knew the heart had soemthign to do with it. I gotta keep reading

.

» Fri May 27, 2011 7:32 pm

Vivec had not entered the Heart Chamber to reinvigorate himself with Divine power since back in the 2nd Era. Dagoth Ur, on the other hand, was standing right next to the Heart of Lorkhan, bound to it by rituals of his own design. Once "unbound" after striking the Heart with Sunder and Keening, Dagoth Ur is much, much easier to kill than Vivec.

___TWM

You beat me to it. Well said.

» Fri May 27, 2011 9:44 am

You beat me to it. Well said.

I was going to say that too.

» Fri May 27, 2011 11:42 am

That "bound to the heart by rituals of his own design" crap is BS to me; I feel the Heart just "corrupted" Dagoth Ur.

Voryn is nothing more than a Pawn; basically put, he ain't bout [censored].

» Fri May 27, 2011 6:50 pm

But at the same time, Vivec has CHIM.

» Fri May 27, 2011 2:30 pm

Not in Morrowind he doesn't.

» Fri May 27, 2011 11:27 am

That "bound to the heart by rituals of his own design" crap is BS to me; I feel the Heart just "corrupted" Dagoth Ur.

Voryn is nothing more than a Pawn; basically put, he ain't bout [censored].

perhaps, Or perhaps he was doing as he felt was right. Protecting Nerevar from Keening and Sunder, for Nerevar would die without wraithguard. And then, when he gained power, doing what he felt was right. Which in his case was restoring Resdayn(sp?).

» Fri May 27, 2011 9:30 am

All that's good, but in the end, all of it ends up helping Lorkhan get his Heart back.

Voryn is nothing more than a Pawn.

» Fri May 27, 2011 7:25 pm

All that's good, but in the end, all of it ends up helping Lorkhan get his Heart back.

Voryn is nothing more than a Pawn.

but who was playing him? I highly doubt that Lorkhan was.

» Fri May 27, 2011 9:02 am

Why would you doubt that? I'm highly confident that future events are gonna culminate with the return of Lorkhan. And all Hell is gonna break loose in a whole 'nother way.

No one else had nothing else to gain with the lose of the Heart, and what else could corrupt him in such a fashion? It COULD have been the tools, but it was more likely the Heart.

Morrowind ended with Kagrenac's enchantments gone from the Heart: that was probably the only thing binding it in the Mundus, at least physically. Lorkhan has, or at least can get, his Heart back.

» Fri May 27, 2011 7:53 pm

God is dead. This time, quite literally.

But death means many more different things for gods than it does mortals.

» Fri May 27, 2011 10:16 am

Why would you doubt that? I'm highly confident that future events are gonna culminate with the return of Lorkhan. And all Hell is gonna break loose in a whole 'nother way.

No one else had nothing else to gain with the lose of the Heart, and what else could corrupt him in such a fashion? It COULD have been the tools, but it was more likely the Heart.

Morrowind ended with Kagrenac's enchantments gone from the Heart: that was probably the only thing binding it in the Mundus, at least physically. Lorkhan has, or at least can get, his Heart back.

I don't think Dagoth Ur was being controlled by another, nor Do I think Lorkhan would make him build a big stompy man killing robot. I personally think dagoth became a little less sane after the whole gaining godlike power thing. With a few less sanity checks, Dagoth's plan probably seemed very sensible when he thought about it.

» Fri May 27, 2011 6:09 am

...which all "conveniently" ended with Kagrenac's enchantments off of the Heart, thus allowing Lorkhan to get it back, THUS allowing him to eventually come back...thereby screwing the world over in some MAAAAJOR fashion.

» Fri May 27, 2011 4:10 pm

That doesn't prove Dagoth Ur was under Lorkhans influence. The enchantments were Kargenacs, and the plan was Vivec's. The executor was the Nerevarine. Dagoth Ur merely knew it was a risk, and tried to prevent it.

» Fri May 27, 2011 8:30 am

How else can you explain Ur's corruption and subsequent gaining of power? Unless someone explains to me where Ur got all that magickal experience that allowed him to get power from the Heart through some ritual he literally made up, then corruption makes the most sense.

I'm not saying that Lorkhan gave him all those ideas and whatnot; that semi doesn't make sense. But like I said, IN THE END it favored Lorkhan EXTREMELY, and he was one of the last few notable figures that interacted with Voryn prior to his demi-apotheosis, indirectly or otherwise.

» Fri May 27, 2011 6:11 am

If you haven't destroyed the heart yet then it is in Vivec's best interest to "play dead" and let you get wraithguard.

Of course this only makes sense if Vivec re-materializes before you destroy the heart.

» Fri May 27, 2011 3:00 pm

How else can you explain Ur's corruption and subsequent gaining of power? Unless someone explains to me where Ur got all that magickal experience that allowed him to get power from the Heart through some ritual he literally made up, then corruption makes the most sense.

I'm not saying that Lorkhan gave him all those ideas and whatnot; that semi doesn't make sense. But like I said, IN THE END it favored Lorkhan EXTREMELY, and he was one of the last few notable figures that interacted with Voryn prior to his demi-apotheosis, indirectly or otherwise.

Even if he was corrupted by the heart, that doesn't mean he was manipulated. Besides, if lorkhan was manipulating Dagoth, wouldn't it have been better to simply make him believe that striking the heart once with sunder, and then a lot with keening would produce a good result? Also Dagoth Ur seemed pretty adament that he did not like the nerevarine doing just that.

I see no reason to believe Dagoth was manipulated by Lorkhan, especially sense all he did was plan to imitate Kargenac. A coincidence is sometimes a coincidence.

» Fri May 27, 2011 7:15 am

Dagoth Ur was acting of his own accord. Lorkhan had nothing to do with Dagoth Ur's plans.

Why was Dagoth Ur building Numidium?

Uh... because it works. Tiber Septim used it, why not.

The Heart itself is not "evil", it doesn't make people "evil" or "good" for that matter. The reason Dagoth-Ur and Almalexia became "bad guys" is because they simply could not handle the power that was stolen from Lorkhan, not many mortals would, they aren't supposed to.

» Fri May 27, 2011 9:04 am

Dagoth Ur was acting of his own accord. Lorkhan had nothing to do with Dagoth Ur's plans.

Why was Dagoth Ur building Numidium?

Uh... because it works. Tiber Septim used it, why not.

The Heart itself is not "evil", it doesn't make people "evil" or "good" for that matter. The reason Dagoth-Ur and Almalexia became "bad guys" is because they simply could not handle the power that was stolen from Lorkhan, not many mortals would, they aren't supposed to.

None of the ones who attempted to use the Heart succeeded (except argueably Vivec). Almalexia's and Voryn Dagoth's insanity just morped into violence that directly affected the PC. Sotha Sil's insanity caused him to retreat from the world and life and recreate it in a more perfect variety. Kagranec risked his entire people, and very likely destroyed his entire race. Vehk is the only one that seems not to lose his mind, although it is questionable if he was all there to begin with. As the axiom says "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" and the power of the Heart is absolute power.