@Martyr no I understand that, I just hate it when people who support the Legion try to throw the NCR's crimes in its face. I'll be the first person to tell you the NCR has had some shady history but again its nothing compared to what the Legion has done.

Oooooooook, now I'm anti-Legion.

First time I heard that from Siri my Cherchez La Femme courier cracked her knuckles and then started dispensing a litle Love and Hate into every crimson-coated [censored]face in a thousand square miles.

Everyone could do that to you not only Legion, Fiends for example and their leader Cook-Cook, who...... you know, to one of the NCR members

Heh... my character was a bit more... http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1149186-moded-fallout-new-vegas-screenshot-thread-5/page__view__findpost__p__16847159.



The Fiends aren't trying to pass themselves off as "civilized".

Heh, might as well add my $0.02

The reason why I immensely dislike the Legion, is because it has almost every feature of a Totalitarian state. While I agree that Democracy is probably not the best option for a post-apocalyptic world, and an Authoritarian setup would likely be better (e.g: House, or Col. Autumn's Enclave), what Ceasar wants unnecessarily goes way WAY beyond that.

I know, just saying

In my wasteland slavery means instant death. I go out of my way to kill Legion scum, some camps will respawn, so i go clean them out every few days. Nothing more satisfying than a legion scum head exploding from a well placed .308. I am at that point in the play through where i have to fight the final battle which i almost did, but then it hit me even though i am siding with house Caesar and i have unfinished bussiness. I shalll hunt Caesar down, he shall know fear i will see to it, and he will die poorly as all cowards do. Little [censored] that he is hiding behind a wall of skirts Tristessa is comming for you Caesar and all your dress wearing little friends too.

Asai

I really wish people would stop citing Bitter Springs as some sort of vile evil perpetrated by the NCR. You have absolutely no clue as to how any military would have reacted in the same situation as First Recon. Here's a clue: They could have been the best the USMC had to offer in real life, and Bitter Springs would still have turned into a bloodbath. Why? Because the Khans had put a civilian settlement in danger by basing their raids out of it, and because of that NCR's military intel half-correctly pegged it as the Khans center of power in the region. Nobody in the strike force even knew there were civilians there until the mines had done their jobs and the firing stopped.

Why the hell do you think Boone is completely traumatized by it?

Major Dahtri also has some more history on it: Basically, once the CO of that op realized that his men were unknowingly killing non-combs, he just froze up. Dahtri (a captain at the time IIRC) did the best he could to salvage the mission, which earned him a promotion.

Because Khan women are invariably non-combatants and there was no potential that Khan warriors couldn't have been mixed in with the crowd? Mistakes happen in war to even the best and most morally upright armies.



If high and mighty means pointing out the NCR's checkered past doesn't even remotely compare to what the Legion does regularly and is proud of doing it's not going to change.

To claim Bittersprings or coercing Vault City into membership somehow brings the NCR down to the level of the Legion is just naivete. If you support the Legion support the Legion. But don't try this hogwash of claiming everyone is equally bad because no one is perfect.

Exactly. Honestly, nobody can be called "at fault" for Bitter Springs, as there's more than enough [censored] to spread both ways. The Khans were beyond dumb for endangering their people like that, and the NCR had a near-total breakdown in communications.

Oh, and as for "the soldiers should have known" you'd be very surprised. Battle is so hellishly chaotic that 99% of the time, most soldiers in the ground won't know whats going on thirty yards away. The term is "Fog of War."

I'll be sure to keep that term in mind when I start randomly killing people in Goodsprings during 'Ghost Town Gunfight' :whistle:

Spoken Like a true Orc! For the Horde! lol

but really, I cant stand anyone who forgoes Technology for any reason. Be it Religious reason or as a Philosophy.
Its Like saying im not going to use the Wheel, or Levers are the devil

I can Understand Regulating Tech use. but to outright deny its use is Limiting your growth right out of the gate

Ah, incompetence can be used to validate anything done by the NCR that could remotely be considered wrong, then. Did Bitter Springs need to be taken? I mean, was it a cesspool like Nipton before the NCR came and started murdering folks? I think not. No doubt some drug trade took place but the Great Kahns are relatively harmless in the scheme of things.

Nonetheless, the NCR "needed" to take control to enforce their "law". In reality, the NCR and Caesar's Legion are more similar then anyone would like to admit. Only difference is Caesar makes his intentions clear; he means to conquer everything and, in doing so, start the process of rebuilding anew. Personally I'd rather take the guy who punches you in the face rather then the coward who'll stab you in the back and immediately deny it afterward.

Slavery is a wonderful thing, I wouldn't have the Legion any other way. :wub:

Rebuild with what? Sticks and stones and mud? Do you forget that all those fancy buildings are made with high technology, that which the Legion shuns?

Caesar's intentions clear? Like how they were clear to the Khans when Karl courted them? Like how he told them that the Khans would get to rule over the Mojave, or how Melissa would be a Speculatore? Or how they pulled that one on so many tribes before Ha...haha... Nice one.

The Frumentarii are all about backstabbing.

Why do my Couriers not support the Legion? Because he views them as pathetic dogs, blindly following a madman.

1) Everyone in the Legion is a slave except Caesar. No single individual in the Legion is permitted to live his life except within the strict parameters set by Caesar. He is served by thousands of yes-men.

2) The Legion is based on a false premise. Caesar's soldiers believe he values their strength; in fact, he values their weakness. Only dull, subservient individuals need apply.

3) The Legion has no future, and Caesar knows this. The Empire exists to be subservient to Caesar's will. It will fracture when he is gone. This will eventually happen. The remnants will return to tribal warfare.

4) The Legion are hypocrites. An anti-intellectual stance from a government ruled by an intellectual. A body purity culture whose leaders indulge in vice. A culture boasting of lawfulness that is rife with exceptions made for those in power.

5) The Legion are cowards. Not physical cowards -- their fighting ability should not be doubted. But they are moral and intellectual cowards. They reduce all social interaction to it's least complex form -- right by might. They are afraid of the responsibility of being individuals so they completely conform to society. Like all totalitarian regimes they utilize enhanced state security. They are a people consumed by the fear/threat reaction.

6) The Legion is a sociology experiment conducted by a madman. Caesar has a brain tumor, a physical ailment that is well known for causing extreme personality disorders. Caesar and his precious Hegelian dialectics are the only reason the Legion exists. He isn't trying to rebuild society. He is indulging himself, dressing up primitives and tempting them with power so they can be the pawns in his one-sided chess match with the NCR. It is extremely possible that if Caesar was healthy none of this would have happened.

From the moment my Courier left Doc Mitchell's house and saw that ominous cross in the East, everything he saw or heard built his belief that the Legion were dangerous to the future of the Mojave. Nothing, not long conversations with Caesar, not speaking with the soldiers, not talking to their pet trader, nothing, has ever changed his mind.

The NCR has problems.
Mr. House has problems.
Yes Man has problems.
But none of them are as rife with banolity, evil, brutality, conformity and everyday stupidity as Caesar's Legion.

Real Life: If you think the Legion are cool and want to support them, go right on ahead. It's only a game.

Was actually referring to the grand scheme of things. It can't be denied both factions mean to conquer whats left of America, and both factions undoubtedly use unsavory tactics to achieve that goal. The NCR does it under the guise of trying to rebuild the Old World, which is folly since doing so would only lead to the same exact situation they're in now. The Legion is a bit more direct in their approach. Everything else is semantics.

The NCR doesn't create irradiated pits of feral ghouls that can never be inhabited by normal life again as a matter of policy. Stop making excuses. Prepare to meet your doom, legion scum.

Er... Having a little difficulty separating real life from a fictional universe are we? Anyway, it's fun to debate on the losing side. Particularly when people start getting "supr srs".

No, to quote Caesar "I'm just [censored] with you."

Not even a remotely similar situation.

There's a mass of people charging at you out of a place you'd been told was a military camp. Could you be absolutely sure there weren't warriors in that group? How do you tell a Khan warrior from a Khan civilian? They couldn't have concealed weapons? How does the presence of children prove anything other than everyone is trying to escape which is exactly what you were ordered to prevent? If they bring the kids along you're supposed to let them all go? Maybe the children are being deliberately used as human shields. Are you going to let this mass of people just charge up to your position so you can all be slaughtered if they do have concealed weapons or warriors mixed in? You have orders to open fire. How can you be sure your commanders don't know something you don't about these people? Are you really going to risk your life and the lives of your comrades in defiance of direct orders?

Can you tell honestly tell me that you know you would have never opened fire in those circumstances?

War is messy, brutal and chaotic by nature and Bittersprings is an understandable mistake. To claim a tragic mistake made in the heat of battle makes the NCR anywhere near as bad as the Legion is just naive and ridiculous.

I know how to end this debate real quickly.

Both of you Legion and NCR supporters shut up and support House.

That is all.

You mean was Bitter Springs being used as a base for Khan raids against the NCR? Yes it was as Papa Khan himself will tell you.



Or to put it another way the NCR "needed" to take control to stop the Khans from "attacking them."

You mean both the NCR and the Legion are expansionist powers? Shocking. That must mean the only difference between the two is one is deceitful. It could not be that one expansionist power is much more brutal and awful than the other. No they are both expansionist and therefore equal and we should respect the guy who is more brutal since he just is being upfront about how awful he is.