So in other words, Vulpes' tactics are indicative of the way the Legion does things. One would think that if what Vulpes was doing was considered to be wrong, Caesar might ask him to stop doing them.

I know how to end it. They are video game characters!

You're trying too hard, IA. Better luck next time.

Just for future reference, you only damage your side of the debate by cranking up the condescension. Anyway yeah, video game characters, fictional universe and all that. I'd recommend taking a step back from the lore to those getting all fired up.

I don't like the slavery, and the fact that they think that anyone who knows that the Legion came from Roman history books is a blasphemer.

I guess "all fired up" is to be expected with a topic such as this one. Yes i do agree that if you want to contribute to the debate one should refute the idea NOT the individual. Sure i do poke a bit of fun at Legion supporters with dress jokes, but it is just a video game after all and at this point i consider it to be a damn fine one when it is able to inspire heated debate concerning game/morality/story points.

What is totally awesome is that;
1) the game will allow for the player to pick just about any side they choose even thier own. There is really no wrong solution to the problem as presented in FONV just a difference of approaches to the same problems in the Mohave.

2) the discussion concerning the faults and flaws of the Legion, the NCR and House does have some parallels to today with east versus west clash of ideologies. It is especially relevant as one considers the parallels of todays forms of governments, which the game does a pretty good job of disguising but leave just enough poking through that thier weaknesses and failures can be exposed and disected. Pure communism (the Legion) is a beautyful thing as presented by Marx, but it fails to consider human nature instead expecting those in control to surrender control once the system is up and running, forgetting that those in power, those with priviledge will do anything to remain priviledged (the down fall is basic human nature pride). We with the economic melt down of the last few years see the inherant weakness of the Capitolist systems as they promote the rampant greed that nearly crashed the entire world wide economic system. Capitolism a system that promotes and thrives on the most vile of human weakness greed, and like the NCR brahmin barons, the wallstreet barons are really no different (again failure to account for basic human nature greed). Toss into the mix something like socialism which tries to take the best of both communism and capitolism combining them into a hybrid, to make life a bit more fair for all. Socialism's only crime is that in order for the fairness it promotes to happen it will require people of priviledge to surrender some again a not going to happen situation. Granted the definition of communism, capitolism and socialism are not in great detail i do feel that this is not the apropriate venue for an indepth chewing over, but as the 3 major factions fit the definitions loosely there is some room for a brushing past them.

Conversations on boards like this one concerning topics that otherwise escape "polite" conversation as "polite" conversation does not include religion, politics, but in the scope of a game these ideas can be disguised somewhat allowing for thier discussion in what should be harmless if somewhat emotional debate. This debate i do hope will foster some compromise like if the legion abolishes slavery i could get on board, or if the NCR was to just stop thier rapid and unsustainable expansion. If House could tone down the officious jerk part of his personality, "this is an employer/employee relationship" sure thing old man in the test tube. As this is fantasy land it might be possible for once that the little people get a break instead of the socialize the debt and privatize the profit model so prevalent today. Anyway i love the debate but we need to keep the emotions in check and stick to refuting the idea and not the individual, anything less and your just an annoying buzz in the background to be tuned out as irrelevant. To the mods i do hope you understand that some folks will find the discussion uncomfortable, but to close the conversation because a few might not be mature or knowledgable to handle it and act out as a form of censorship as the mods will close a heated discussion is a disservice to the rest, silence (censor) the annoying buzz and let the advlts continue.

Asai

Answer is simple: because we have NCR.

Many will dispute but NCR just as annoying as Lions BoS. Prosperity in a such short time: they started agriculture, ranching, high level education and had a industrial revulotion in a blink of an eye. They just jumped over all the political evulotion; they built an industry, a nation and even a democracy. Ceaser talks about how the bombs cleaned the human progress and what he says makes sense but somehow NCR reached the industrial age already... not much of clean state don't you think ha baldie?

I still believe NCR is absurd, they prosper as if they're living in the fertile crescent let alone post-apocalypictic America. You just can't start agriculture; it requires wide knowledge of local plant that takes generations to collect and after a period of artificial evolution you can produce vegetables that can feed masses. And all this only possible if there are suitible plants that can be shaped into fertile vegetables which America didn't had.

I'm NOT asking for realism. All i'm saying is: this absurd Deus ex NCR sterilizes the fallout universe. Ceaser's ideas makes sense in a post-apocalyptic world; refusing to help sick, depending on slave labor and such. Yet somehow NCR thrives much much better without them.

As long as there is NCR; Ceasers philosophy is pointless, BoS' philosophy and so on....

Edit: Bad english, sorry.

I voted "Other":
They specialize in close-combat (Unarmed/Meele) - which is fine. Yet they don't think to have a shields or somehow cover themselves against ranged attacks!
(I'm aware this is probably a limitation with the FNV game engine... I also know some legionnaires use ranged weapons but they use low-end weapons and they're terrible at using guns...)
How can someone who aspires to rule a whole country employ such a massively flawed combat strategy? It's beyond idiotic in my opinion. It's not even war at the Roman times, it's how they fought hundreds and hundreds of years before this! When people just ran randomly at each other with sticks.
At least the Roman army had multiple sophisticated formation that were highly drilled. Ranged bow-men, cavalry, pike-men etc etc. The Romans even had artillery and massive logistical systems.

Basically can you imagine if the NCR Rangers adopted a guerilla tactic against them? Sneak up to their camps, stay quite far away and hidden, everyone whips out their AMR and head-shots the whole camp. Then retreat as soon as possible.

Their whole philosophy on combat/war is just idiotic in my opinion... No chance they could rule the entire continent like Caesar seems to think.
In FNV - to me - CL just seems like a bunch of head-less kids trying to poke each other with sticks

Could you guys begin to imagine in the FNV engine was good enough to implement even 50% of what is described on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_infantry_tactics#The_Roman_infantry_in_battle? That would make me respect the legion!

^^

>Disregarding the fact Legion can go toe to toe with the NCR and has taken what basically amounts to 4 U.S. states.

Whatever it is they're doing, it obviously works.

Shield just make you movement more slow, so I differ on this,I also differ in how do you use the term stick, since that they use, more than just Machetes, they have Ballistic First and Chainsaw, as for others, it just engine limitations, but Legion could a have a good fight with the NCR, they taken Arizona after all, maybe they relies too much in melee weapons, but since that this a videogame, tactics like those works, there must be a reason of why some people like to use "Melee builds" for their Couriers rather then relying on guns or energy weapons. Also there must be a reason of why the NCR didnt attacked the Fort yet, aside from the General "Wait and See" Oliver

I voted other. The only reason why I played as CL once and only once, has nothing to do with their politics or world view. It has everything to do with the fact that the CL questline is short and kind of weak in my opinion. Also by choosing the CL questline, you lock yourself out of a lot of other quests, (not just the ncr quests, but other side quests). CL's scope is simply too limited to play more than once for the acheivement.

Except the NCR isn't. It's straining. That's why they're going expansionist.

And Caesar's ideas make ZERO sense in a post-apoc world. It's all the strong preying on the weak. That's what animals do. Humanity became the way it is because we're a communal species. The very existence of altruism in communal species shows that it is a viable collective survival trait. If it wasn't, natural selection would have taken care of it long ago.

I just find it hard in any video game to be the bad guy.

The joke behind NCR is that it's essentially proof of what the Vaults COULD have done. I think it's interesting to realize that the entirety of NCR's sucess is undoubtedly do to the G.E.C.K at Shady Sands and probably the technology available to them at Vault City. You're essentially assuming this was built on the back of a bunch of tribals as opposed to highly educated Post-War survivors (see the Boneyard + Ghouls). Ghouls, actually annoy me to no end because we should be seeing them EVERYWHERE since they represent INCALCUABLE knowledge in a Post-Apocalyptic world.

The fact the Enclave used the Vaults for Social Experiments when only a handfull rebuilt human society is meant to be appalling, I think.



I don't think that Caesar was ever meant to be anything but the Evil Karma option. The developers took too much of a gleeful "Caesar's Legion is EVILLLLLLL!" approach to things. Anyone who thinks they were meant to be anything but monsters should note the needless cannibalism, support of cannibalism, misogyny, [censored], no technology, and more they get tacked with. If they REALLY wanted CL to be anything but a monster they would have bothered explaining why Caesar's Legion is the best option according to him.

Oddly, Raul was the only guy to actually give a decent argument. "You have a million tribals and raiders out there and you need someone to reform them by force. Caesar's Legion did that."

Raul doesn't even LIKE the legion and he argues better than Caesar (He doesn't ARGUE for the Legion either, he just spouts off Academic Jargon. I'm an Academic - I work in a university, I know Caesar actually isn't saying ANYTHING).

Well perhaps you're right: all my problems with NCR was already in Fallout 2. What has been done is done i suppose, still miss the first Fallout's post-apocalyptic atmosphere :sadvaultboy:

They employ a "shock & awe" strategy in their campaign. It's the sheer brutality that makes them such a terror on the battlefield, and the depth of their devotion to Caesar ensures they will not hesitate to fight to the last breath. Like the Saxons of a bye-gone era, though they lost in the end, they put up a heck of a fight during the expansion of the Roman Empire.

Fear can cripple an opponent as surely as any weapon of steel.

I think you may have pooped your pants over the Yangtze Memorial.

My thought exactly. it was a Pre-war Memorial ;p

Other.

They can enslave people but I can't. Not fair, Legion. Not f'ng fair.

What to like about them? Basically, they are women bashing, blood thirsty, [censored] bag slavers with idiotic fashion sense who just act evil to be evil. Man, even NV has better overall story, yet I just miss the Enclave guys oppose to those silly skirt wearers since Enclave folks were actually threatening. I would like to keep neutral reputation with them only because I would like to "Fail" the brain surgery for the leader cross dresser (I have no hard feeling against real life cross dressers since, it is just preference. However, I would not spare such understanding against those ass heads!).

Good Character - All misery done by legion is unforgivable.
Neutral Character - You are blocking my way( drug business )!
Evil Character - No one can command me! Especially weakling such as you, Scissors :hehe:

Here goes my Legion impersonation:

Doing drugs is bad! Crucifying the defenseless, abusing women, and owning people as property against their will, that's all fine. Now come here and give me a reach around mister.

The Legion's fine in theory. Slavery is the backbone of any budding civilization, after all. When it gets put into practice, however, they just decided to stop making sense. The sixism really doesn't flow right in the Fallout universe when you've got gals like Cass, Veronica, Christine, Sydney (FO3), and half the female named NCR NPCs capable of kicking all sorts of ass. Are there no badass women in Arizona? Apparently, because otherwise the Legion just decided to devalue the female six for no reason whatsoever.

Also, the refusal to use drugs is baffling, especially given that their leader is an educated man. Medicine is kind of important.

I figure it's a kind of eugenics, weeding out all the potential weakness from future irradiated generations.

Symbolism. Why do you think the Devs moved the location of the real life (sort of) equivalent? The Yangtze Memorial is deliberately placed.