Fair enough. I don't hate the class system, but at the same time I don't care that it's gone.

Can someone please explain why they actually liked classes?

Is it because moar numborz = better RPG? Do you feel smarter when you can see more visual numbers in a game?

You have perks now, so you're still making decisions EVERY level, something OB didn't do.

The funny thing is, Todd basically says thats why they removed it when he talks about the removal of birth signs. he said they didnt want players "ruining" their builds with a decision in the beginning of the game. Anybody thats played an ES knows that Birth signs cant ruin your character. So if Todd thinks that about birth signs, you can imagine what he thinks about the choices in classes (in regards to new players, becasue I dont know of any vets that dont have some idea of what class they are playing).


More numbers does make a better RPG, more variables.

Please explain to me how birthsigns are any different than perks other than in name. Except for the fact that they're generic, rather than skill based.

Please read my whole post.

Please answer my question.

I see no problem with Classes. It's just a name associated with certain skills. Major and minor skill selection is something that should be included. It represents your accumulated knowledge up til the point where you start playing. Certain people, based on their schooling, experiences, etc will always be better and worse at certain things than other people at the same point in their lives.

The only issues I found with leveling where the grind for attribute multipliers and miscellaneous skills offering no level experience. The former is easily fixed by tying attribute levels directly to you skill levels, similar to Galsiah's character mods. The latter is another easy fix. You just start letting all skill increase contribute to leveling (though I totally think miscellaneous skills should contribute less to that leveling).

Honestly, removing classes was sort of a pointless move, as they really only mattered under the more restrictive leveling conditions of the previous games. Removing them after removing things that made them restrictive doesn't really make sense to me.

Why, that wasn't even the point of my statement.

The main complaint about birthsigns were that they haven't done anything big.

So BGS had to make a choice. Make them have a bigger effect, potentially causing the problems you just mentioned, or cut them out. They choose the second.

no, just no.

Yes, just yes. You must be new to RPGs.

Ugh, I don't want to turn this into another attributes vs perks thread.

We are still making a decision every level when we chose a perk, so you still have choices to make every level. Unless there's a service you can buy in which you can reset your perks....Which I'd be strongly against.

Classes was 1 decision, perks will have 50. And who knows, maybe it'll turn out that perks actually have more numbers involved than you'd think.

Then Why bring it up?

Classes and perks are not mutually exclusive. Im not sure why you keep bringing them up.

I won't convince you otherwise, it would be meaningless.

But I can say, I've played enough RPGs to know that more redundant numbers won't make one better...

What redundant numbers? What are you talking about?

From what I know so far about the "removal" of classes was simply the removal of the name. In essence everything else is still there. Your major skills are essentially the ones you use most / the ones you place your perks into and level faster the same as major skills in the old system, your minors are the ones you use less and aren't really part of your character and thus don't contribute to leveling (much) unlike minor skills in the old system which were necessary to gain multipliers when leveling (which actually negated the point of classes in the first place).:shrug:. The only change I see is removing a name and that annoying way of leveling I will however miss naming my class lol.

You're still not acknowledging my statement, where it's been stated that with classes, you have to make a decision and there should be consequences, that's how RPGs should be, and yet we are chosing a perk every time we level up in Skyrim; 50 decisions to make, and if you want to all of a sudden be a destruction Mage and you're level 49? Too late, you're already too heavily specced in the 1h and archery trees.

So I see even more decisions and consequences in Skyrim even with the removal of classes.

Just because you have more numbers that supervises the same thing, it won't make it any more deep or complex, just more confusing...


... okay, we got away a bit from classes...

The perks will be directly linked to the skill your using. Classes are choices made before you even start the game. Not the same thing choice wise.

They wanted you to build your class as you played instead of at level 1. After those 50 levels you end up with something more unique/specialized than Oblivion/Morrowind characters. (Due to having twice the levels and Perk Trees with the 50 perk cap)


Pretty simple. It's just a design choice, and they want every game to be different.

And what exactly does number crunching have to do with role playing? That just part of how you interact with the game world you're in, you don't need a bunch of numbers for that. The problem with using numbers and stats is that many people get so obsessed with them that they aren't even involving themselves in the game anymore. And people who don't want to bother end up being forced to give up on their game time in order to try and figure out how best to manipulate them.

Number crunching? Are people really that bad at math? Im terrible at math and no TES was too complex with numbers. Plus :

We need the numbers to show us a representation of our skill/stats. We are not our Avatars, we dont know where they are in their progression. Our world is nothing but numbers, therefore any type of interactive, alternate reality we try to create will be defined by numbers as well.

Yes, we need numbers for those.

But more numbers are not always better...

They are when they dictate things. Plus this is about classes, not numbers exactly.

It's still a choice either way, who knows what the perk trees will look like, we might not fill up every single perk in a perk tree to get to the last tier of perks. I still see choices.

Hell, maybe I'm wrong and I'll miss the class function, but I think perks (and I know you'll disagree) will fill in the gap of classes quite nicely without the need of numbers.

Again, it's all a matter of preferences, some like numbers and rely on them, while others rely on visual representation to show growth/change. One side is not smarter than the other, it's just a matter of preference.

Whats up with all this "numbers" stuff? What do numbers directly have to do with picking major and minors and naming it? You sound like you have no idea what your talking about. How is class VS. no class turning into numbers VS. action game argument? Without the numbers/stats, you have no RPG.