THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE KNIGHT OF THE IMPERIAL DRAGON

ONLY OOOOOOOOOOOOOONE

Dagerdude, your thread and comment about the Mythic Dawn being a stereotype shows you weren't paying any attention to what others are saying. I'm not going to reply to you if you're just going to ignore it.



That snakes in Ireland thing comes from the snakes on carved stones, not actual animals...

In my land, my people refer to this thing as a "joke." Perhaps in time you will learn our ways.

But there is a rainforest in Leyawiin region

Maybe it was and is a metaphysical jungle they refer to. f

*sigh* Can't even believe I'm posting here, but hey, what can I say.

Here are the facts:

In the game Morrowind, if the player were to be in the actual world, and walk over to Cyrodiil, the would find a jungle. "endless" even.

In the game Oblivion, the player is decidedly not in a jungle.


What caused the change? Executive decision. 'Retroactive continuity'. Bethesda, for whatever reason, decided that they wished to represent Cyrodiil the way they did. Good on them. However, by doing this, they changed the 'continuity' of the series because in the previous games, had you walked to Cyrodiil, you'd have found a jungle. (I'd be interested to know how Arena presented it, though).

This is a fact. No one can complain about this change - it happened, and it's hardly implausible as a change. You just ignore the previous lore. Don't bother with the whole Talos nonsense, just ignore it. (Talos-nonsense just creates issues because it tries to balance two impossible goals, but claims to do so credibly. Simply, it is in-credible because in Morrowind, Cyrodiil was a jungle. Talos-nonsense takes place chronologically before Morrowind - so as an explanation, it's found very wanting)

So in 'official lore', there was no change, just continuity. Cyrodiil was forever Maryland. (Talos-nonsense takes so much weaseling to justify its weaseling that it can clearly be discounted as 'official lore', just as the knowledge of the Savants of Morrowind's should be (and the lazily ported book that calls Cyrodiil "endless jungle" in Oblivion, too).)

Where there is a seperate issue is the disappointment of the exchange of a 'unique' setting for a 'generic' one. That's subjective, but when you look at everything else that went with the jungle, you can see where the disapointment lies. If you can't, you're some kind of extreme masochist.

Then there's the seperate canon of 'cool-lore' in which Cyrodiil remains a jungle and 'official lore' doesn't really hold much sway. E.g. if I were writing a fan-fic, I'd sure as hell set it in the PGE's Cyrodiil because it's hella cooler than Oblivion's. It's entirely possible that someone in Bethesda might make a future executive decision that makes 'official Cyrodiil' cool again. That's their prerogative. But that doesn't change the fact that in 'official lore' Cyrodiil is not a jungle, and that in 'cool-lore' it's whatever the hell you want it to be.

:violin: :ahhh:

Why are you arguing in lore forum then?

But in Morrowind the player couldn't walk over to Cyrodiil, so there's really no way to say with certainty what you would have found.

But it wouldn't make much sense that the heart of the empire was a jungle, how do they explain that in the lore?

Em, it was always described as a jungle. Note, the countryside was meant to be jungle, not the cities. So it does make sense.

Cypress trees and puddles, you mean. Florida isn't a rain forest. Make that region surround the Imperial City and we'll talk.

I almost wish Cyrodiil did look like Maryland. Ask Lady Nerevar- parts of it do look lush and semitropical enough to fit the bill. But the most rain foresty bits are the most empty and useless, and the rest of Nibenay (the supposed center of Cyrodiilic culture) is likewise empty of habitation, (let alone high society) and decidedly temperate and rugged. It feels like cool parkland, not even Mediterranean.

Jyg's back, so he'll bring back some order to the lore. :foodndrink:

I like the idea of a temperate Cyrodil.

Ok, let me make sure I have this right, Bethesda needed a generic fantasy world so they pulled something out of a hat that said Tiber Septim made Cyrodil Forests, Fields, Swamps, and Mountains? Also, Gallowglass why is it wrong that I find the Mythic Dawn to be a huge stereotype? I now know that there is a lot of lore on them but I still find them to be a stereotype. Are we not allowed to have opinions now or something?

Either way, Cyrodil isn't a jungle because Bethesda wanted a generic fantasy world and their (Flawed) reasoning is "Tiber Septim did it" so now we can complain about it so the next game world is done right.

Bethesda went temperate, and the former dev writer who made up the jungle provided a retcon on his own. Ridiculous changes warrant unsatisfactory explanations. The devs didn't give a crap about explaining it- they retained the books describing Cyrodiil as "endless jungle."

That's true. Why did they want to change it? To make the game more mainstream? Sorry but I don't see why a jungle is the end of the world when making a mainstream game when compared to the boring land they came up with. Which would you prefer jungle with mountains and maybe a swamp or fields, forests, mountains and swamps?

They disagreed with the nongeneric interpretation. It wasn't the game they wanted to make, basically.

also true, they wanted to make a game that modders needed to fix and tells you how your character thinks apparently. In other words, the made a ton of huge mistakes leading to a bad base-game with good expansions since they actually used the lore in those without changing it. Adding to it is fine, changing it (9/10) isn't. Especially when it makes the game less interesting and before anyone asks I played Morrowind before Daggerfall and Arena.

This is just one of the larger inconsistencies in Oblivion where Talos went back in time and changed Cyrodiil into a jungle for a few months to make use of the speedtree tool for the developers.
On a side note (completely off topic): Has anyone else wondered why M'aiq the Liar isn't wearing his colovian fur helm when he's in colovia?

Players HATED the Colovian Fur Helm so it was removed (At least I think that's why). It is another inconsistency with Oblivion and the past games though. Also OT: Did anyone notice how nasty M'aiq was in this one. He called players fools and idiots for wanting crossbows and levitation then Bethesda made him invincible so we couldn't kill him. What was the point in bringing him back if all you would do is bash Morrowind players?

They didn't remove the Colovian helm, they removed Colovia.

THEY WHAT!? (Not yelling at someone just shocked) I thought Colovia was in Oblivion! Is this a joke? Oh wait, they removed the jungle Colovia but left the fake, boring one right?

Nope, its in Cyrodiil :hehe: Where? Could you really tell?

about m'aiq, they made him a psijiic instead (the grey cloak)

There never was any jungle in Colovia. The western part of it is a good visualization of the region and fits the PGE, imho.

What they removed was the difference between Colovia and Nibenay, with their distinctive cultures and identities and the interplay that made Cyrodiil strong.

What we got was two sentences when you clicked Rumors.

"In the old west, in Colovia, where men are men."

"Nibeneans think they're slick. Slippery is more like it."

Deep stuff, eh?

Oh, ok. They did remove both Colovia and Nibenay then and merged them together to get Nibenovia!!!!

Hence why I now call him "M'aiq the Inexperienced Aggressive PR Guy". Unfortunately I doubt names like that fit in OB's NPC name field so they just called him M'aiq the Liar again.

I never found him funny to begin with even in Morrowind, but I could at least smile at and forget him then. Now he's pretty much what needs cutting from TES, not spears, crossbows or culture.