i would say it was updated more than retconed. Names were updated, the continent changed shapes a bit and some cities moved slightly (a mainland Ebonheart still exists btw), but over all the base remains, especially in provinces on which we have no info.

Probably yes. I don't know as much about evolution of lore as i'd like (same stands for lore in general). But i'm not big fan of Mankar, so it served as nice enough nail to his coffin.

On Khajiit wasn't it so that there are several types of Khajiit, some which look very closely humans or Goof, er, Wood elves. Argonians maybe too. Orcourse that is probably also very good way to explain why things changed from original. :liplick:

Yup allot has been retconned.

Though you can't describe every change as a retcon. It's also possible to expand and elaborate on already established topic. The Khajiit would be a good example of that. Were you first only had humanoids with fur, we now have 16 different types of Khajiit, one of them being humanoid with fur.

Neither is every retcon significant or bad. Places moving about or the outline of the maps changing aren't that significant when they're just dots and lines on a map. When they have a history it's different, then a whole history has to be changed.

The Jungles of Cyrodiil however have been http://www.imperial-library.info/pge/cyrodiil.shtml and are even http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/provinces_tamriel.shtml in Oblivion, http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/before_the_ages_of_man.shtml. So referring back to Arena and considering it to a be a retcon doesn't cut it.

But the missing jungles are only the most iconic element of a much larger vision on Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil is a place that has had more then three thousand years of civilized history. In that time what used to be an elven city expanded out into the islands and marches of lake Rumare. The city has seen the rise and fall of Magocracy, religious hegemonies, trade and cults in all sorts and forms. But you can read the First PGE for yourself.

I can understand that no game could ever catch all the intricacies of this vision, but this absence isn't something that can be explained by a retcon or something willing suspension of disbelieve should be expected to cover for.

I don't think it was possible to make Cyrodiil in a way that wouldn't make some people upset.

Yes, but they could've tried a little harder.

Perhaps, but that would either mean delaying the game or taking less time on other aspects, to appease the few who actually either bought Redguard or got on the TIL and read the PGE1E.

You don't need to read the first PGE to know its a jungle, hence the links to other books. I don't really care about jungle at this point, with chapter five in the works, I just hope its good. Its still jungle to me anyway.


Oblivion took how many years as opposed to Morrowind? How long was it from the release of their first concept art to the release of the chapters?

And as Tarvok said, A Dance In Fire gave us a temperate Cyrodiil.

As for Redguard and the PGE1E, the fact that they didn't make The Eye of Argonia is proof that it didn't sell well, at least not compared to the other TES games. That leaves the people who actually went to TIL and read it, which is apparently pretty small compared to how many people bought Morrowind and Oblivion. I'd elaborate, but I don't think the forum rules would allow it.

if one book says cyrodiil is temperate and three more say that its a jungle the logical assumption is that its both, not that its one or the other.

Eye of argonia was not made because they decided to focus on more traditional RPGs, not because redguard didnt sell well. furthermore, sales DO NOT impact the validity of lore. Also, just because fewer people got the info (which really moot, since even people who dont do lore are pissed about the lack of jungle) does not mean that bethesda can suddenly disregard what they have accepted as fact for 10 years. The fact that they are the owners of the franchise is the only thing that gives them a right to change their lore, but it does not remove our right to complain about when they get it wrong.

Bethesda decided to make cyrodiil temperate because they wanted to. MK explained it through Talos. end. of. discussion.

"Lore" takes a backseat to more mundane concerns, where sales do matter. It isn't Ars Gratis Artis, it's all about making money.

i never said it doesnt. if thats bethesda's motivation then fine. but redguard's sales have nothing to do with cyrodiil not having a jungle - stop making excuses for a topic that needs none.

besides, its just as easy to make a jungle as it is to make a temperate forest. my guess is that their location in Maryland influenced their decision, seeing as how it is much easier to obtain photorealistic textures this way. but again, this doesnt matter. they decided to not make it a jungle and MK explained it, no need to discuss this further.

And that's wonderful, except that Morrowind made platinum on the Xbox and was a bestseller almost as soon as it went gold on the PC -- and it was an infinitely more artful game. So your argument falls flat on its self-righteous little ass.

I mean, sorry if that sounds grating, but you literally drag every possible conversation about the Cyrodiil setting into the very Morrowind vs Oblivion debates that you make fun of through the selection of your sig quote. You insist upon your right to have your own opinion, which is perfectly reasonable -- but you throw that opinion in everyone's face at the mere mention of dissatisfaction with what Bethesda did in Oblivion. And, finally, you have this haughty attitude that comes off as if, as a corrollary to your right to an opinion, you also have a right to have that opinion generally accepted as being right (which, at least around these parts, it is not).

And then you wonder why you are the subject of ridicule and condescension? Seriously?

EDIT: And, in case you jump on me for mentioning Morrowind instead of Redguard, Redguard seems to have been http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/elder-scrolls-adventures-redguard.

And such an amazing gift! A single line: "...through the familiar Cyrodilic countryside. Past fields of wildflowers, gently rolling woodlands, friendly hamlets". Clearly, http://www.tibetinfor.com/tibetzt/flower/huahui_en/02/02_menu.htm, http://avinashjee.sulekha.com/albums/bydate/2007-11-09/slideshow/100616.htm andhttp://carbon.cudenver.edu/engineering/Places/index.html only exist in Pastoral England Cyrodiil.



Adventure game don't sell well, but is there any particular point you're making? Considering your habit of not stating it what is that you are arguing and changing your stance halfway through is rather tedious. I'd rather see that you commit yourself to an opinion before any discussion commences.

Hmm. I played it bit to check it out, just enough to get out of prison and to get into Imperial City... But it was winter, snow and all. Guess it was me who ate all those Cairn bolete caps. :banghead:

Can that be counted more are gameplay than lore? Anyways Arena (now that i revisited it) infact would back up idea that Cyrodiil hasn't been jungle for some while. Somehow i feel like ass.

Considering your inability to concede an inch of your original views and your mockery and attacking of those who are humble enough to reconsider what they think in light of evidence, I'd appreciate it if you treated this as less of a battleground and more of a place for intelligent discussion.

So discuss instead of using the "money trumps lore sources" excuse which makes no sense. This is the lore forum. Do more research and you can make better arguements. Everyone has to learn that at some point.

Also, Arena has little lore which is still counted as nonfiction in the game world, so it sin't a good source. Generally speaking, Daggerfall and up are good sources.

OK, then let me explain what I mean. Because the PGE 1E wasn't the most well-known piece of lore information, Bethesda didn't have to worry as much about a significant backlash if they did things differently.

Edit: Furthermore, if it was more well-known, the people at Bethesda probably would have known about it better, possibly even using it as a source when designing the game.

They were quite aware of the First PGE when they made the Third.





Even if it's known among the devs but not amongst the public why do things differently? What is there to gain from that?

Money. Well, that was gamesas's theory, anyway, though they forgot that Morrowind was successful even with its lore, when they took the Ayleids and turned them into some generic Tolkienesque Elven race just with an evil twist and turned Cyrodiil into New Gondor.

Owned.
And cool pictures.

Agreed.

I'm not following the money excuse that cyrodiil is different. It's fundamental world design grievences, not money, that made Cyrodiil what we see in Oblivion.

i repeat: it would have taken just as much effort to crate a jungle as it did to create a temperate forest. Its a design choice, and it was theirs to make (even though i think they made the wrong one ). we have a good mythological explanation for the lack of jungles, and can even weasel out some more mundane ones (global cooling, etc.) if we want. thats good enough.

anyways, Gondor and Cyrodiil arent very similar, and the Ayleids, even with how little we have of them, are dramatically different from any Quendi.

It would have to be some seriously fast-paced global cooling and climate change. Most of climate change (as radical to change an entire country-sized landmass from jungle to temperate forest) is on a scale of thousands of years - nay, even tens or hundreds of thousands of years.

And I don't mean cooling, I mean the change in vegetation in wild-life.

were talking about a magical land here, where evolution was part of the whim of the divines and took place in a matter of seconds. The cooling of the land is obviously caused by the slow progression of the Atmoran [NUMINIT] southwards towards tamriel. i dread the day that they arrive.

PS. i just pulled that out of my butt, btw