I might have made a poor choosing of words. "Failed as a TES game" is waaay too harsh. The game is excellent, I just don't agree with a big deal of the design choices made.

Staring at the concept art for Skyrim blows my mind as much as the concept art for Morrowind. I'm blatantly biased toward over-the-topness when it comes to characterization.

I'd say, per order of magnitude :

- Level scaling.
- Dumbed down and consolized compared to previous iterations.
- Many quests felt just childish and stupid.
- Feelings of "Disney Fantasy".
- One voice actor per six and per race, and half of them were just bad.
- Oblivion gates, related to the point below, but ten times worse.
- Dungeons were rather repetitive considering the amount of them.
- Glitchy and buggy.

Now, I'd like to point that actually, a good deal of these points are also true for Skyrim, though of course not at the same degree. Make of that what you wil.

I loved it, flaws and all, and played the sh*t out of it for four years. Never had that sort of longevity with a game before. I think a lot of people have taken Morrowind as the flagship title of the Elder Scrolls series, and will criticise any subsequent sequel, however good, as not providing the enjoyment that Morrowind did. so as the direct sequel, Oblivion was always going to be in for a helluva lot of stick.

This. And considering that there are only three dungeon tile-sets (Ayleid, fort, cave/mine) they became even more repetitive.

1. Blanket level scaling - renders gameplay pointless

2. Toddler-level lore/writing/storyline - renders immersion pointless

That's it. Oblivion did a LOT of miscellaneous things better than Morrowind. But with those "big two" so bad, I've learned the hard way not to buy a Bethesda game until modders like Oscuro or Phitt give it a workover. Not buying Skyrim for at least a few months.

Right now, after heavy modding, Oblivion is probably my most-played game of all time. Without the ability to mod I'd have put it down after an hour.

Four and a half actually, mines and caves are not exactly the same (so the half ), and you forgot sewers.
And five and a half if you count Oblivion Gates, but I would agree that these were so painful that I accept the idea of dropping them altogether.

But to be honest, despite this lack of variety in tileset, they at least had the decency of being rather diverse when it came to size and layout. Skyrim is ten time worse and more repetitive with its corridor dungeons...


Yeah, modding really made it up for Oblivion, though there was still lots of underlying problems that couldn't be solved. But it sure has a lot of playing value once the modders practically remade it - though you have to admit that if a game need to be remade to be good, then it wasn't good to begin with

But the number of tile sets is actually still higher, because in Oblivion you have both the caves and the towers. And there are some unique settings that don't fall into other categories, like Paradise and the Painted World.

And then we go to SI, where we find caves and ruins that are completely different from those in Tamriel...

Sorry, but I must strongly disagree here. Each and every dungeon in Skyrim is leaps and bounds over all of Oblivion's dungeons combined. When you compare quickly assembled cookie-cutter dungeons from Oblivion to Skyrim's meticulously detailed dungeons, each with its own personality and story to tell (seriously, no exaggeration), the winner is very clear.

And I found no difference whatsoever in the linearity between the two games. Oblivion's dungeons were just as much a corridor-crawl as Skyrim's, only the main rooms were bland and uninteresting.

So therefore I say Skyrim's dungeons are ten times BETTER than Oblivion's. I never get tired of wandering them, and that is what matters most.

I have to say that the average Morrowind fan reminds me of the average Fallout 1 and 2 fan so much that it's kind of amusing.

I go even further. I think Skyrim's dungeons are better than Morrowind's dungeons as well. Yes, I said the unsayable out loud: I think Skyrim's dungeons are better than Morrowind's dungeons. Anyone feel free to flame me.

In terms of world-building, landscapes, atmosphere, I think Bethesda outdid themselves with this game. As much as I loved Morrowind's art design it is my opinion that Skyrim's art design is superior. There is no city in Morrowind or Oblivion that compares with Solitude. My jaw just drops every time I approach that city. The College of Winterhold, seen from a distance, is another view that inspires mute, astonished awe in me every time I see it.

Bethesda clearly put a lot of thought and a lot of attention into building the world of Skyrim. It's not perfect. But nothing made by the hand of man or women is perfect.

gasp!!! Heresy! actually i kidd, skyrim did an amazing job in the world building part, also i like the world of skyrim better than the ash lands of morrowind, and the countyside of oblivion. I've actually enjoyed walking from city to city instead of fast traveling, or stiltstridering to the next town

http://i.imgur.com/L0TKG.jpg

Tell me where you find that in Oblivion. On a side-quest dungeon, no less. :whistling:

I loved Oblivion. I will always love it. Me and good old Cyrodil had quite a romance. I still find myself missing it greatly in Skyrim..

You're also forgetting the most beautiful area seen in any game.

Blackreach.

I guess if your idea of an adventure is "press forward for 15 minutes and pop the mob that appear at regular interval", probably, but then in this case I would play CoD or other ultra-linear dumbcrap.
If not, then Skyrim's dungeons are one of the worst sh*t to ever happen in a game.

Oblivion's dungeons were more than just one single corridor, and though Skyrim's dungeons have meticulously detailed walls, they are still just a tunnel that goes forward without anything to think about, to explore or to use tactically. As nice-looking as they are, they are still the absolute ZERO when it comes to design.

I got tired of them after the second one, and can't bear the idea of entering another after barely a week. If you don't get tired of running forward mindlessly, lucky for you, but I'm afraid I'm not a hamster in a wheel.

Another thing I really like about Skyrim is ...yes, it's grey, grim, and *depressing* when the sun isn't out, but when it actually shines, it's amazing how the landscapes, towns, and cities can become almost as vibrant-looking as Cyrodiil's at times.

**I put an asterisk next to "depressing" because I actually don't find grim, grey weather depressing. It's my favorite weather, actually.




:woot:




Ah I see. So you've not found a dungeon with traps or puzzles in it yet? You haven't found one with multiple directions (they do exist) in which you can get lost for hours? Got it. You haven't been ambushed by a half dozen NPCs, and after the melee you forget which way is which?

Got it.

I just did that quest, and the Mind of Madness yesterday. Both more memorable than any quest I can recall from Oblivion (Excluding SI)

Oblivion's dungeons were all designed by one person, and you can very easily see all of the assets and plans he used in each dungeon he did. They are utterly generic, with nothing in them but level-scaled loot or enemies.

Skyrim's dungeons actually have various layers, puzzles, logically placed traps and unique enemies and features, just like back in Morrowind. Geirmund's Hall is the best example of this, as it starts off as a normal cave until you drop down into a hole with leads into a small underwater area, leading into the Draugr Barrow.

Another dungeon, Embershard Mind, shows a skeleton with an old journal detailing as to how he was worried the supports would break.

Another cave has it's own forest inside, with Spriggans guarding it and the bones of dead animals, along with some wolf packs and sabre cats, not to mention the dwarven shield you can find inside at any level!

Don't dare tout your ignorance as fact.

Yes I have - the exact same traps I saw in Oblivion, so I have a hard time counting this as a point for Skyrim. Except for the moving pannel, yay, one point. But considering it always come in the single corridor to follow blindly, it was hardly surprising.

No, that I haven't. I haven't seen anything approaching even to the hint of an alternate path from the main railway. And to be honest, I have a big doubt about being able to be lost in a Skyrim's dungeon, not to speak about being lost for hours. I ask for evidence here.

Well, this lone designer put more diversity in layouts and path than all the 10 from Skyrim. Sure, they added some nice "personnal touch", but the dungeons are still all "press forward along the railroad, don't bother to think or act except to fight". I don't want to watch a cinematic as I follow a single path with absolutely no thought involved, I want to, well, PLAY and as such to have POSSIBILITIES.
Man, no surprise the games have been dumbed down to oblivion (ahah) and crap like CoD sells buckload, considering how ignorant fools can uphold that a linear corridor is a jewel of level design !

The only dungeons you could ever get 'lost' in were in Daggerfall. Not since Morrowind, and especially not Oblivion, have dungeons been large enough to actually risk not being able to find your way out.

All I'm arguing here is that Oblivion's dungeons are far worse. Please, post some examples of good ones from Oblivion to change my mind.

How are Oblivion's dungeons any better? It's the exact same thing there, even worse. You have not provided any examples or evidence explaining how Oblivion does it better, just uselessly ranting on about how Skyrim is so dumbed down for the cawa-dooty audience, which is sadly still true.

But this isn't a discussion on what's been dumbed-down here. What I'm saying is that every bit of 'criticism' you've brought up for Skyrim's dungeons apply far better to Oblivion, and that actual effort has been made to make each one in Skyrim more unique.

I kind of think the generic fantasy setting of Oblivion is what makes the game cool. I mean come on, who wouldn't want to live in a world where everything is inspired by Lord of the Rings? The point of the game in my opinion is to feel like you're living and exploring in a different world, and I think Oblivion achieved that.

Wow, this is really sad that the empire was completely destroyed shortly after the events in this game. But I guess I can do like I do with other games and movies where I don't like what happens in the sequels: pretend like it's the only game in existance.

i know Oblivion isn't considered the best Elder Scrolls games but I'm not such a hardcoe Elder Scrolls fan that I have to play every game and learn about all the lore, I can stick with just one game in a series that I really like. So in my character's world nothing bad like that happens after he saves the world.

Edit: Wow, how the heck did this end up here? I thought I posted this on a completely different topic.

On the dungeons subject, I must say that I never really bought Morrowind's ones. The world is atonishing, but the dungeons were mostly too lit and bland for my tastes - I liked the ancestral tombs and the Corprusarium, but the caves weren't very interesting. Oblivion, on the other hand, felt great on that aspect - yes, they were repetitive, but the atmosphere was just right, and I particularly loved the Ayleid ones - Umbacano's quest was one of my overall favorites on the game. Also there was that dungeon with a cemetery on it, that was so atmospheric... which it was, again?

Shivering Isles had some really, really great dungeons too, and I loved the prison one.

Everyone? Everyone hates Oblivion?

A little overexaggerated don't you think?