Its been that way for me on two separate PCs with games years apart. Just happened the other day in fact. I called her a monster and got a very dramatic decapitation on her. Afterwards I went to sell some stuff to Lisbet and there was the Namira dialogue.

No, that's not what I want. I don't wish to, for example, destroy the DB but get all the loot one would get from joining and succeeding in the quests. I only ask that the act of destroying the DB was more complex than entering one cave and doing a search and destroy / loot.

I'm ok with deadric quests being evil for the most part because these aren't major components of the game. As it stands, I can do an RP here and play only 20% of the game or violate the RP and complete 100%. There's no technical reason preventing a 'good' branch to quests in addition to the normal or evil branch.

If people want to quibble that the TG and DB are inherently evil then, OK, give us a few quests which are inherently good and force good to complete. Personally, I'd rather the single quest with an A/B branch than an A/B quest choice. This way we can try both and see how they come out.

For me it's that naturally I am a fighter and would join the fighter's guild.. Now I will never join companions because forced werewolf. Become a werewolf or leave...

Thieves guild is forced too because as soon as Brinjolf gets within an few feet of you his forced dialog begins and even if you ignore and exit convo that quest is forever in your log.

(found a way out of this.. get in front gate, turn around and leave.. go around back .. where stables are.. swim across and go in back door.. use blacksmith anvil , wait for brinjolf.. keep pumping on blacksmith station.. wait for him to say his thing three times.

He will leave and you can hear him hawking his wears.. you can stop smithing now.. You are golden..He leaves you alone and no quest in your log forever either.. Tested this twice.)

DB you get repeatedly attacked by assassins until you join or destroy them..

ad nauseum........

Just let me play the game for Christ's sake.. That is all I ask..Stop forcing things on me.

And apparently I can't even go into Windhelm without every guard within a five mile radius wanting to tell me about that strange boy performing the Dark Brotherhood rituals, then BAM! That quest is in my log forever and unless I want to go murder an old lady to start the 'Destroy the Dark Brotherhood' questline, there's nothing I can do about it.

EDIT: And apparently, if you have the Dragonborn DLC, are Dragonborn, and are a certain quest, you'll constantly be attacked by Miraak's men until you finally go do the DLC.

Sweet Mara, just let me play the damned game! I'll do the DLCs when I want to, OK!? Christ!

When you do get to do thiefy stuff (that's not among optional quess) you still mostly steal from gangsters and criminals, except, in Skyrim you're not doing it for the "greater good".

Others? It's not a fan-made excuse, you are being drugged during the event. I personally do that quest with a good character because I roleplay, and avoiding that quest is nothing but heavily relying on player knowledge, which heavily breaks the roleplaying of a character who couldn't possibly know about what's gonna happen. And that's, personally, a bigger no no for me.

Using your post for a jump off point...

Yes, the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild should be gray or even evil. Daedric Prince's are evil and manipulative. Personally, I do not want them any other way It is then *my* choice for my character to be gray or evil and play that way for that character by actively choosing (NOT getting them thrust in face!) to do them. Allow me to attack Brynjolf who brazenly confesses he is in the Thieves Guild. Let me help the "Aretino boy" in a different way then murdering some old hag. Why is Molag Bal forced upon me by going right, instead of left inside of Markarth's gate, or Merida when I randomly come across her beacon?

I guess I think, there are Daedric quests, where are the Divines? Why can we not join the Vigilant's of Stendarr? Where are the "good" theological quests? Azura and Merida are as close as we get to "good", but even they can be thought of as "gray." Many players feel they are both manipulative and self centered. I can not effectively argue against those points (and NOT looking to!)

A good majority of quests in Skyrim are littered with "gray" parts to them, with little to no alternative for completion but "Do" or "Do Not." Many players eat that up and embrace the "gray" in their characters. For me, that is an "everyday" characteristic, not a "heroic" one. Almost everyone has a touch of gray. Can't we be better in a heroic video game?

I know... How boring!

The Thieves Guild really svcks in this game. I want so bad to just join the Lioness and clean them out, but sadly no such option is given. I don't think the TG need to be Robin Hoods, but this group are nothing but losers.


I like a dark Dark Brotherhood. For what they are I think it's the best faction quests in the game. But again, if you want to destroy them ... you first have to murder an old lady. WTH.


I want the Daedra quests to be dark. To me that's the point of them. I DON'T want to be forced into doing any of them. That's just terrible writing.


I thought it was pretty well balanced myself. Several quests lead to outdoor locations or forts, etc.


Yeah there isn't a true 'good' side, but I actually think this is pretty good writing. As in real life it will be the victor who writes history and chooses the side that was in the right. I don't think any army went to war with nothing but pure intentions. It's just too bad that after the battle for Whiterun the quests go downhill fast.


It's hard for me to say enough how badly I hate the Companion questsline or WW being forced to finish. And like the other guilds if you do become leader you are not leading anyone ... you just become the number 1 quest gopher.


Personally I don't think there was enough racism in the game. Prior games had dispositions to other races or even factions, they had slaves, etc. In a world where there are that many different intelligent races you know there would be all kinds of racism, but Skyrim really downplayed it.


Granted I generally play the 'good guy' and Skyrim doesn't offer much there.

From the perspective of "I just want to play everything in the game", I like the option of every questline having "A/B branch" choices -- ie., good-leaning or evil-leaning motivations/tendencies to complete them. For things like DB or TG, then, it would be grey, but any character could justify why they are there. I think this option is practical from the perspective of playing a game.

From the perspective of "I really want to Role Play in a way that is consistent and immersive and true to my character's persona", then it would be more authentic, perhaps, to have completely different ways to handle guilds like the TG or the DB -- secondary, fully-developed quest lines to combat these guilds, perhaps.

In the past, like you, I have reached a point where I was tired of just running all the clearly "good" options, so I did do the DB in Oblivion as well -- though I knew I was not really true to my character while doing it, I was just curious for more content. But here in Skyrim I am less comfortable doing it, it just feels even more wrong and slimy.

The TG I think is an inherently "grey" organization. There are kinds of thievery that can be consistent with Neutral/Chaotic Good characters -- Robin Hood types, anarchists who don't really think personal property is or should be anything sacred, perhaps Nords or Forsworn who think foreigners hae stolen what is rightfully theirs. Or thievery can be for outright evil reasons -- the pleasure of disturbing others, brutality, etc. What I don't like in Skyrim, is that the TG is pushed further to the dark side, and that the questline can't be completed without the selling of your soul.

I really appreciate what you say here. I personally do think the DB is dark. I think the TG is grey. I am OK with them being that way.

As I said to @slide, when I played the DB in Oblivion, I just had to admit that I was abandoning character integrity for the sake of more gameplay. But in Skyrim it is just too stark and yucky even to do that -- I can't get past the shack, and have to go take out the DB instead. I would prefer it if the 'destroy DB' started in another way than killing that (admittedly horrible) old hag in Riften.

But your further points are spot-on. It would be great to have quests for the divines, as well as the daedra. And it is imbalanced to have the more evil daedric quests be inescapable, while the more good daedric quests are made optional.

And it would be great to have the option to transcend the grey of ordinary life. Honestly, part of what I like about the escapism of RPG's is the ability to do just that. In "real life", the world is a very grey mess, the news is mostly horrible, etc. I don't come to an RPG so I can get more of what I laready get IRL. I come for fantasy escape.

For some, perhaps that is boring. For me it is fun. Not that I want it all rosy and candyland -- building grey into the storyline is interesting -- but let that grey have the option to go dark or light depending on what the character chooses.

I agree the TG can be gray, but here, it isn't. As others have pointed out, to even start the quest line, you need to beat up and threaten mild shopkeepers who did nothing to offend you. You are a brutal thug for hire which is anti-ethical to even a neutral char much less a good one. To make TG neutral would be fairly easy. Make the whole quest one TG faction against another. It mostly is now so that would mean your faction only takes action against other bad guys. That's acceptable for a neutral and maybe a good.

Like you, I did the DB and made up back stories to justify some of the acts I was demanded to do. That ended when the task was to

. My imagination failed at coming up with a justification for that vile disgusting act. I was a good deal more comfortable with the daedric cannibal quest - after all these guys were already dead and my acts didn't hurt them any.

Again, as another said, if we have daedric quests, they need to be evil or they aren't daedric but why not also divine quests? How about a monastery dedicated to a divine has been invaded by a Sqqaddtrich (I made that up) who has an army of wraiths imprisoning the monks and our mission is to free them and kill the Sqqaddtrich? Add that the wraiths can disguise themselves as monks so the quest adds IFF elements and we have a good quest which is at least as challenging and exciting as an evil one.

If I can think this stuff up, Beth can too. Beats me why it chose not to.

if you are on pc Nexus has a mod that allows you to remove some quests -not all -

There is another mod that stops people from giving you quests when they pass by.

Quest Eraser.esp

TheChoiceIsYours.esp

Don't leave home without them.

-edit-

To stop those thugs just go to Solstheim and return.. so I am told.

Yeah I added the mods that got rid of the Miraak's priests attacking after the first group and also got rid of the vamps attacking from the Dawnguard DLC.

It doesn't bother me too much to have quests given that I have no desire to do. I just don't want to be forced to do any or have constant attacks until they're done.

Wait, I fail to see an alternate questline with more playability as a problem? What's wrong with a Penitus Oculatus questline?

I seriously hope they do. What's wrong with seeing more of the world? I've been diving into dungeons for fifteen years now, just let me see the sun not just when I'm on my way to a quest. Some open air would be a refreshing change, and I see no downside.

Double post.

Um, there are Nine Divines quests -- "The Book of Love," "The Heart of Dibella," and "The Blessings of Nature." If those don't seem interesting, well, allow me to quote Oblivion...

"The Nine Divines are boring. Daedra? They're never boring."

***

I like the fact that Skyrim's choices don't amount to a difference between "twirl your mustache and eat a baby" and "say fifty 'Hail Mary's and volunteer at the soup kitchen."

Speaking as a quest designer myself, I have a profound distaste for everything-goes-perfectly endings unless they make sense, and insofar as what I want to write, difficult moral choices, or the necessity of making the best of a bad situation, hold my interest better and my ideas are often of higher quality. A thousand tales of white knights besting the blackest villains don't compare to just one of a difficult choice.

If I may leap on this, I ironically enough found Cyrodiil in Oblivion to be more racist than Skyrim. This is because apparently base disposition when playing as an Argonian is low enough when the game starts that everyone instantly hates you after a single conversation. Whereas in Skyrim...a few meanies in Windhelm and the occasional "lizard" comment from an NPC and that's it. Cyrodiil honestly feels insanely hostile to me.

To be more back on topic, I don't have a problem with factions in Skyrim being dark. I have a problem with the game insisting that I myself have to be as such to have most of the quest content in the game. Four whole faction quests (Dark Brotherhood, Thieves Guild, Civil War, Companions) railroad you in some fashion. Dark Brotherhood at least has the option to destroy it, but 1.) you already have to kill someone unprovoked to do it and 2.) from a gameplay perspective, the Destroy the Dark Brotherhood questline feels like a complete and utter afterthought. Thieves Guild is literally nothing except railroading because the writer was convinced of how amaaaaazing their plot and characters were. Civil War forces you to complete the main quest up to a point just because. Companions forces you to be a werewolf without any kind of actual choice in the matter.

Yes, you can technically not do these quests, but from purely a gameplay perspective, locking you out of a lot of major quests because the writers couldn't be bothered to give you any real choice svcks. I can't roleplay a good character OR an evil character, because I have no choice in the quests I do to go either way. Every last character I've ever played has been grey, because I actually like doing things with my character instead of skipping things in my journal (which mind you never go away). But I can't actually roleplay because of it.

BTW there is a pretty long questline for the temple of Mara to bring lovers together that suits more good folks. That being said, I manage to play some pretty moral characters. I just make different ones to do the darker stuff. I still wish the thieves guild could be taken down though and the destruction of the dark brotherhood didn't seem like an afterthought and involve murdering an old ( if reprehensible ) woman.

This.

I recall that everyone seems to dislike my Breton character in Cyrodiil for some reason (and I just started out with no fame or infamy and a decent Personality level). I don't even know what Bretons even did to the Imperials? Still, gave a good RP reason for the Oblivion DB, that's for sure.

But when the same Breton character went to Skyrim, the Imperials treated her fine there. Very odd, considering I thought Bretons and Imperials don't hate each other?

The Morag Tong are more akin toto a firing squad in my opinion. Also it seems that most people you kill during dark brotherhood quests are massive jerks. Did the Dark Brotherhood really need to be called in to kill a group of bandits? The freaking companions and just about every other law abiding faction already does that.

Also the owners of half moon mill are not good people per say.

exactly!

Oh yeah, the Skyrim forums are still heavily active.

Well now that we are in the spoilers section, spoiler tags aren't needed.

I see what you mean now, and I get it. Yeah, I also was disappointed (somewhat) just after 11/11/11, when I learned my fighter guy (named Thor a'Zaene) had to join up with a bunch of werewolves. He didn't care about this, but I did.

I just wound up roleplaying the whole situation with Thor, and then later with a second character named Gunter. They simply joined the Inner Circle, and then transformed exactly once. After that, becoming a werewolf was something we never did again. And I gotta admit, having 100% disease resistance was pretty cool.

I still can't really role-play a warrior like I want because of the damn WW requirement. In my mind (and thus my character's mind) WW are creatures to be slain, not an extra buff to add to your character. MW-Bloodmoon did it right. Being a WW caused all types of issues and getting rid of it didn't come cheap. Several of the characters I've played that joined the Companions quit them right after they're exposed to the truth. Others think they'll just ignore it but then when given an ultimatum to become one leaves them. I've had a couple finish the faction but cured themselves asap. Honestly some of the most non-logic writing I've ever seen in a game. Bad Bethesda, bad.

To me a 'light' option here would have been to be able to join the Silver Hand and help cleanse the Companions, though the Silver Hand's tactics are not as moral as one would hope either.

I agree with the werewolf point -- i would like to be a fighter and slay them. Bloodmoon did get it right, you could go wolf but there was consequence to it. It is not a good fit for a noble-leaning fighter's guild questline to have to go wolf.

If you wanted something along these lines that made more sense, how about adding a class of druidic shape-shifters? No Hircine-generated evil baggage, all the fun of shape-shifting, and logically playable by both good and evil characters. But that would be a whole different character build -- keep the fighter class pure for itself.

Personally, I don't like the Silver Hand any better than the Companions. Silver Hand also seems to harbor a lot of vampires, and personally I'd rather go werewolf than vampire. The Silver Hand also seem to be more of a bandit group and less honorable than the Companions -- I don't think they would be any more "light" of an option. I would rather just have the Companions be free of the werewolf part of the storyline, or at the most, have it be an optional side-choice, like vampirism was in the Oblivion Dark Brotherhood. Then we could choose to take lycanthropy or leave it, as we think fits with the Character build we have.

Wait, they do?

Every time I have run into them I have killed at least a couple.

It looks to me like they are trying bring the whole "Twilight" thing into Skyrim. Major lame IMO.