So, after playing Skyrim for a while now, I have to say I am really disappointed by how most of the guilds and plotlines have gone really dark.

Some points:

1) I loved playing thief characters in both Morrowind and Oblivion -- but now the guild is really low-life, and you have to sell your soul to a daedra in order to complete the questline. I really don't want to be a Nightshade wraith in the afterlife! Sovenguard looks a heck of a lot better. It has nothing of the delightful flare or the Grey Fox ("Capital!") of Oblivion days. It is just dull repetitive quests filching for low-life crooks in a sewer, Just so you can give your soul over to guard a daedra princess who really does not even care about you much.

2) The Dark brotherhood is even more dark than before. I honestly liked it in Morrowind when we could be Morag Tong -- they at least had some code of honor to them. The switch to Dark Brotherhood in Oblivion was a downgrade, in my opinion, and it went down from there in Skyrim. You could have at least made the option to destroy the Dark Brotherhood be as interesting a quest and have as much content as the option to join them!

3) All of the Daedra princes have gotten darker. I HATED being trapped in the house by Molag Bal -- not even the option to reject the quest! That really, really stinks. I had to go back to a prior save just to avoid the quest. Hermaeus Mora -- again, not really much choice in the matter. Namira, the same -- except in this one we now have to be cannibals! Yuck. It was much better in Oblivion when you had to activate the statues to make the quests start. Just give us a choice, for crying out loud!

4) You have all of this great overland scenery, but most of the plotlines involve going into crypts and fighting draugr over and over again. A little variety, a little more daylight, would be really welcome in the next game (which I hope comes out).

5) Both factions, Empire and Stormcloak, are pretty pathetic. The Empire is corrupt and a Thalmor toady; the Stormcloaks are racist, narrow-minded, and bloodthirsty. And the Thalmor are nasty too. What a disappointment, to make elves be such nasty characters, for someone who grew up on Tolkein and loving things elven. But in this game, you really feel like killing every Thalmor you run into.

6) The Fighter's guild was replaced by the Companions, so now if I want to be a Fighter-build I have to be a werewolf. Yuck. No interest in feeding on corpses, or becomming a monster, just so I can be a fighter. It is great to be a noble knight-type character, but not at the price of becoming a werewolf.

7) I know it has been treated a lot in the forums, but the racism got a bit out of hand in this game. To many overtones of Aryan supremacy and Xenophobia. It is not necessary, and does not help the game.

8) I like RPG's where a player really has an option of what direction to go, and the options are all equally interesting. In this game, however, once you finish the main quest, and perhaps the mage quests, a good-leaning character is really out of much interesting stuff to do. Even Shivering Isles gave us a choice between mania and dementia, and that is Sheo's realm! There should be at least as much choice in the noble realm of the Nords!

Thieves are Thieves. So the Thieves Guild on Skyrim is better than the Robin Hood crap on Oblivion.

Wow, somebody actually complaining that Skyrim is dark! Usually people complain that Oblivion was too sunny / happy.

I find that RPing with my good characters is awesome in Skyrim. It's all about fighting evil and stuff. I love it.

I agree with this to some extent. To get into the TG in Skyrim you have to have a REALLY mean [censored] of a character. I've never had anybody this evil yet, although I just came up with a concept guy which should work. His name will be Bjorn Tu Beywyyld, and he will be almost like a Hell's Angels-type of guy, come to life in Skyrim. Nobody will [censored] with him. Really mean guy.

No. This would be too similar to what happens in Oblivion. I hated that we had to do that in Oblivion, and the character I was doing DB with refused to go there. We literally left the questline unfinished, while she wandered eternally as a sad vampire.

Why is this a problem? I enjoy this. All depends on the character I'm with, of course. Some of them don't dungeon-dive at all.

Seriously, I hope Beth does not take this advice.

Spoilers man, spoilers. Use spoiler tags when you post info like this, not everybody has done that questline yet.

You obviously were not around before 11/11/11, when thousands of people were posting here, worried that there would not be werewolves in TES5.

Personally, I could take werewolves or leave them. I don't like the way werewolves were done in Skyrim. I want traditional werewolves, which can only transform when the full moon is out. But you see, everybody has complaints, and everybody wants something different. Thank goodness for mods.

So maybe try playing those RPGs instead? I assume you are talking about Bioware games. As they are, Bethesda games tend to be pretty buggy on release, what you are suggesting (more options with questlines) would only add to this.

I mean, don't get me wrong. I would like more options too, but if it gets to the point that questlines aren't finishable on all 3 platforms, and other problems like this, don't go this far, Bethesda. Do what you do best.

Half the questline is about doing Maven's dirty work and the other half about the guild's internal politics and Daedric dealings. The side jobs were the only quests when I actually felt like a regular thief. In the next playthrough I went freelance, it was much more fun than getting involved in Mercer's [censored]. Plus I didn't have to sell my soul.

I'm sure someone smarter than me can explain the metaphysical reasons why 4E Skyrim is riddled with organizations involved with Daedra and selling our soul is an everyday occurence.

Agreed, this is the main flaw of the game, I think. You're forced into doing quests in a certain way, they don't branch out and give the player any options at all. It used to be fine that way, but for a 2011 game it feels really outdated to not do that. I especially feel The Companions questline should have given more options, like deciding to not become a werewolf, and join The Silver Hand instead and fight The Companions. And in the Thieves Guild questline you have to give away your soul to Nocturnal for a not good enough reason, but you can't say no. I also would have liked the choice to clean up Riften and get rid of Maven Black-Briar, but no, it's not possible.

The dialogue gotten darker and more mean as well. If you ask someone what they do, they shouldn't respond "are you stupid, can't you see I'm a blacksmith/whatever!?", all the kids behave like mean brats and so on. I mean, seriously, everyone threats the player as an idiot/slave, including main quest people after the main quest, and yet the player is the damn Dragonborn. Some respect please, but not too far into the other spectrum so it turns into worshipping

The Daedric quests were always pretty nasty. Remember what Molag Bal, Mephala, and Namira wanted you to do in Oblivion? Do you seriously judge the morality of your actions by whether it gave a fame or infamy point?

I found the Morag Tong's quests to be boring by their ease and sameness and the faction to be irritatingly sanctimonious -- I don't see how they're much different from the Dark Brotherhood; both reward murder with gold and magical trinkets. "Legally sanctioned" is still murder.

Well, this is different... I thought people normally complain that Oblivion is too happy! I personally think Oblivion is kind of dark (in a way). I mean, look at all those corpses you find strung up everywhere in Necromancer/Vampire dungeons and in the realms of Oblivion... the inhabitants of those places seem to take their sweet time mutilating all those poor adventurers! I dunno about the Daedric Princes getting darker in Skyrim though, they were already pretty "dark" in Oblivion.

When I play Skyrim I hardly do any quests because of stuff like this.

I readily agree that Skyrim is a darker game than Oblivion. Many more gray areas and, overall, a grittier game.

My problem in both games is that my character is not the hero type. She is not 'The Chosen One'. So anything resembling a Main Quest bears no interest. She’s also just a simple working girl/adventuress. She has neither the willingness nor aptitude to be in charge of anything. So all the Guild Quests are either out or need to be ‘frozen’ at some point well before completion. I would simply adore it if Main Quests in the future gave you the option of the events happening around you without your involvement or even allowed you to be a sidekick to some NPC who acts as the real hero. Similarly, with the guilds, I would eagerly hope for the ability to rise to mid level and just continue to be a ‘working’ member of the guild doing quests without having to rise to the top. Such things are sort of possible now, but take way more roleplay mental gymnastics than I would like to see.

That said, her real passion in Tamriel is exploring (on horseback) the great outdoors and clearing dungeons (for curiosity/thrills, not loot). Both games deliver nicely on that account.

She also is happy to assist others sometimes if the goal and means required align with her own basically ‘good’ nature. And, again, both games provide plenty of interesting side quests.

I'd say that this isn't actually a bad thing - don't hold Tolkien's elves up as the only way such mythological beings can be treated in modern fantasy. He did them his own unique way, and so too should everyone else do them their own unique way. This isn't to say the Thalmor could have been better fleshed out and less cartoon-villain, but elves who aren't good and prefer to be the ones with priviledge in the world? I'm fine with that.

It depends - is the racism in the game down to lazy stereotyping of a particular fantasy setting and anologies of real world cultures - i.e. unimaginative writing - or is it down to what the game world really is like in that place, at that time? The racism might have a point to it - that the Thalmor, Empire and Stormcloaks are all equally as bad as one another, and none of them can be trusted as they represent too much the dominant culture of the creating races; those races would naturally lean towards keeping the other races down, especially the ones different to them, and ensuring their own have the best slice of the pie. Their visions are all heavily biased towards specific races - the Aldmeri Dominion favours certain elves, the Empire favours the races of men, and the Stormcloaks favour the races of men. Also, unless there is a very good reason for it, the game world will be a lot like the real world - there is still a lot of racism out there, people aren't all nice, and culture isn't all nice either.

^Yeh, a lot of the things mentioned in the OP are meant to be that way and I wouldn't want it any other way (IMO, the Dark Brotherhood of Oblivion was worse, given who you had to kill...) I mean really, what do you expect from doing Daedric Quests? The lord of domination, or manipulation, or primordial darkness/revulsion aren't exactly going to give you pleasant things to do. There are some ways to screw them over though, like assembling all the cannibals and killing them off. Or ignoring Molag Bal, whose sphere is domination. The best thing to do is to just plain not do them if they don't fit your character's morality.

Can't say I much like the Companions or Thieves Guild forcing you down the road of a Daedra Worshiper, though. Then again, you don't have to use the beast blood at all after your initial transformation, and three of the five main characters in the questline actively avoid using it. Thieves Guild is pretty [censored], tho, and I don't feel bad about destroying it and leaving Karliah to start a new one on her own (mods are great.)

Either way, there really isn't much stopping you from being a "good" character at all. Sure, you might make mistakes, but that's life. How are your characters supposed to know the outcomes of certain questlines? (The Molag Bal one's a good example, and by ignoring him you pretty much win even if the Vigilant ends up dying.)

Wow! Thanks for so much feedback in so short a time! I'm a total newbie to the forums, so it is really kinda cool. Not sure how to do the quotes and all yet, even, but a few responses to folks:

@Reneee Gade III: thoughtful responses!

Sorry, did not mean to post spoilers where I should not have! And with the Werewolf thing -- it is fine if you want to have that be in the game, but how about it stay apart from the main/traditional factions? Have it be it's own sub-culture like vampire, for those who want to get into it. But let those of us who want to be fighters just be fighters, and have our guild and related quests, without being forced into the sub-culture.

As far as playing other RPG's goes, I generally really like the ones in this series, and prior to Skyrim I think they did a fine job of giving enough choice. This was really the first time I felt that the "good" side of things was kinda thin in content.

The only other thing is that I think you misunderstood my point about the DB. In Skyrim, you can either a) join the DB, and get a well-developed storyline with interesting (though evil) content and good rewards, or b, destroy the DB for the Empire, and get a single short mission and whatever loot you can find in the one Sanctuary from it. I would like to see the "b)" choice, destroying the DB, have more development, so that there is a more interesting storyline to follow to complete it.

I like this game, I just want more content on the "good" side of the equation as well, so that it stays interesting longer.

@Garrus -- I liked all the "Robin Hood ***p". It was much more delightful than being a Sewer rat thief. (And Nocturnal was a better patroness in Oblivion too -- she let you use her key. True, I could turn into Mercer II, and keep the key, but then quest lines go all messy.)

@ Kaidonni: both your points are well said, and thoughtful. Yes, both the interpretation of the elves and the racism do add a touch of realism to the game, and abiguity -- in life things are not clear-cut. What they did in Skyrim is entirely valid from a story-telling/literary point of view, and in that regard it works. I'd like it to be more noble and heroic than real life -- that is part of the fantasy of it all -- but you have some good points here.

For those of you who said the Deadric princes were already dark in Oblivion, sure they were, but I don't think as Dark as here. Also, you could just avoid doing the quests for them -- you had to actually choose to look for the statues and initate the quests. You didn't just get pushed into them with no way out.

@Acadian -- I like the main quest thing myself. However, I have to agree with you on this: just riding around Skyrim on my horse is very enjoyable!

I dunno, the times you straight up murder people is just about the same as the ones in Oblivion. But yeah, I agree that its stupid how the game just throws quests at you. I suspect it's due to complaints that daedric quests were hard to find in past games. To be perfectly honest I prefer the old way where you find them yourself to this crappy hand-holdy system that assumes the player is a dumb-ass who can't do anything themselves.

Also

No, no. It's totally fine to post spoilers here. You are, after all, in the "Cheats, Hints and Spoilers" section. At least as far as Skyrim spoilers go--I try to avoid spoilers to the other games (like Oblivion). Though I suppose that it is a courtesy to use the spoiler box anyways.

Freddo moved the thread from Skyrim General. But yeah, you can freely post spoilers now.

Ah, my mistake then.

I think it is in answer to players' want for "gray areas." While some gray can add a lot to a game, Skyrim, in my opinion, goes way overboard. Where is the balance when almost everything is "gray?"

While I like the color gray, moral choices being gray is something I do not enjoy much, though can be interesting if done well. A good game will have an interesting mix of black, white, and gray. Skyrim lacks 2 of the 3 in their quests.

I actually enjoyed being in the Morag Tong in Morrowind. Their marks were easily disliked and I felt no remorse in their deaths. The Dark Brotherhood in Skyrim I have tried and never got past the first kill. It "felt wrong" to me.

There is nothing wrong with Black and White. Same with Gray. Like all things, they need to be enjoyed in moderation

This is one area that I think Bethesda got right. I like the racism in the game, it adds to the feeling of being in another world. I really would hate for all the races to be one generic copy.

I agree and have said it before that this is sold as an RPG but you can't play your true to your role or even close in many situations. My toon is a chaotic good but cannot play good through a good deal of the game so either must play evil or skip many quests and even two entire story lines

OB wasn't free of this. I objected to the slaughter of innocents which was part of the FG quest line but others excused it as being drug induced. I didn't accept that excuse for my toon then nor do I now.

One note to the OP - you can choose to eliminate the DB in Skyrim, but it's too easy and too short. You clear one area and that's it. I'd have preferred a bit fewer side / optional quests and instead adding a two side to the TG and DB quests where you can choose to clean up Skyrim by eliminating these factions in a quest as long and complex as siding with them is now.

I agree completely, with your point about the FG quest in OB, and with your points about TG and DB here -- that is exactly what i said in my reply above as well. It would be great to have plot lines for good characters that are as rewarding and well-designed as the plot lines for the evil characters.

I did find a mod on Nexus that tries to make the DB a little more paletable for good-ish (chaotic good, perhaps) characters, which I may try, though you still have to complete the first two DB quests as they are, including the activity in the shack. So it still is not OK for a truly good character to play. Good is kinda short on content in Skyrim.

Thanks, Flo. I'll look for the mod.

And I think it shouldn't be OK. I think a truly "good" character would not want to join the Dark Brotherhood in the first place. The Dark Brotherhood make their living from contract killings. They are the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder,_Inc. of Tamriel.

That mod sounds horrible to me. That is absolutely the wrong direction to go, in my opinion. Rather than homogenize a guild so that it is palatable to everyone I think Bethesda should create more guilds.

In Daggerfall we had the Dark Brotherhood for "evil" characters and Knight Orders and Templar Orders for "good" characters. I would like to see something like a Necromancers Guild in a future game to balance out the Mages Guild. Maybe an Imperial Guard faction to balance the Thieves Guild. And so on.

I miss the wide variety of factions we had in Daggerfall.

2) The Morag Tong and Brotherhood are hired contract killers.

8) Noble land of the Nords? Nordic culture is basically built on killing things. Their greatest hero wiped out an entire race.

5) One word: Feanor.

Exactly... I wish there was, I don't know, at least a joinable faction that's... Not nearly as messed up as the Stormcloaks and Imperial Legion, that you could've joined with it's own in depth storyline. If the Dovahkiin is a decent person- and as powerful as the Dovahkiin is said to be, then I can't help but imagine, the Dovahkiin defending Whiterun from BOTH the Imperial Legion and Stormcloaks, and I can't help but imagine the Dovahkiin either working with another faction, or working alone to overthrow both groups.

... I'm not a very nice person admittedly, but in Azura's name if I were as powerful as Dovahkiin, I certainly wouldn't ruin Skyrim's future by assisting those two factions in taking over Skyrim-, yet the game basically forces it upon you, and makes you lose a huge amount of content by not helping one of the two sides. And there's really no mod that creates an in depth storyline where that's really an option, because it's so ingrained into the core game mechanics.

It felt like being evil was more of a choice in prior TES games, and there was less pressure from the game itself to do everything in one play through. On top of feeling unable to roleplay a character in Skyrim who is a decent person cause of all that, it also makes characters designed to be evil feel less unique... Because a lack of factions filled with good or decent people, to contrast with all of the... General terribleness.

Why do people even try to rationalize why a good character would want to join an assassin's guild, anyway?

It never felt "Wrong" for me, it just felt more like one of the members was going to yell out, "But Mom, I'm not going through a phase!" The quest themselves were fun, the dialog gave me an eye twitch.