aint that the truth.

It has always somewhat boggled my mind that guys who obviously played Warhammer 40k have such poor military strategy. Then again, they prolly were not that good...lol.

Artillery trained across the Potomac does though, I think, and do you reall think that the Enclave would sit on it's haunches against something that they believe is a hostile threat? I mean really old boy, if you would have just said something like, "They're possibly waiting for Bradley-Hercules to come online" I would have accepted that as I believe it to be a likely scenario; but your insistance of this Enclave non-aggression or not specifically being against the Brotherhood really just gives the impression that your trying to defend Fallout 3 instead of the issue - at least to me. I mean fair enough you likely don't have the time that I do to memorise game trivia, I seceede that, but I would have accepted that the Enclave were preping for an attack and were simply beaten to the punch; was going to suggest it myself with relation to the artillery being there but I didn't want to give Bethesda the credit for setting it up.

EDIT: Yeah and saying that I was 'jumping'to a conclusion too? Really? It was hardly an unfair assumption was it?


Yeah I get it, the originals required some suspension of basic science, leave Fallout 3 alone - gotcha; really old sport I know these things can't exist in reality .


And I would accept that except as someone who's tasked with trying to rationalise the Enclave's frankly ridiculous defeat in Fallout 3 all I can do is point to moments like this and say that anyone, surely, would have re-targetted and opened fire with the artillery against the thing; Bethesda specifically wrote it so that the Enclave would make almost horror-movie-esque stupid decision for the sake of the plot that they want to happen.

I stand-by what I said earlier, don't set-up a villian that you aren't willing to write. Don't give the supposed professionally trained army artillery if your not going to have them use it even remotely competantly, or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDZlNgD8LR8#t3m28s... yes this still pisses me off.

I also included the crane for good measure, it appears it took longer than I recalled because Prime crashed against the Pentagon walls... so why didn't the supposedly best-trained soldiers in the wastes re-train the artillery we see them use seconds later against Prime when he's outside and stood still?

What do you mean? Of course they are.

Bradley-Hercules was standing by and ready to launch at any time. Why they didn't immediately turn it against the Citadel is yet again another point of plot convenience

Granted, it probably wasn't online right after the defeat at PP. However, when the first payload hit Prime during the assault on Rockland, the Bradley should have immediately been turned against the Citadel.

It wasn't plot holes it was because The Citadel was the pentagon and that is whole lot of wasted info and tech if they blow it up or damage it.Not to mention liberty prime because if they destroy liberty prime then they can't reverse engineer him to make more of him and once again that would be great tech wasted

Of course I am going to defend F3. Its over and again that its "bad Writing on bethesadas part" and the originals are held up to this great standard, when really they arent any better writing-wise. They really arent.
They have a classic RPG mechanic and camera view. So when i see everyone chiming in "cause of crap writing" over and again, i most certainly like to point out how there are just as many issues with the originals.
I do get that this is Bethesdas forum, so voicing you opinion here gets their attention. But its not always about getting their attention. Its about poining out how you all think beth is crap. you are at least good enhough to entertian me when i point outhow the originals are flawed.






Ridiculous defeat as compared to what,, a single person who has no idea how to pilot a boat or use its navigation systems taking that boat from the mainland to their secret base, infiltrating and then destroying their entire base of operations...... singlehandedly?

As far as LP. there were artillery shells exploding all around him throughout his march to PP. b I can see what you mean about the vertibirds, but I would refer you back to the Enclave just alloing a boat to dock on their rig. Really?

Of course i am going to keep ointuing out how the originals are also ridiculous.
People come to this site as afans of the games and then they post something about liing F3 and BAM, everyone jumps all over them with lore and canon and rose tinted glasses.

The Enclave and the BoS are secret lovers and don't wish to attack eachothers base.


They just fight outside but the make-up six..... mmmmm

Bingo. Another piece of bad writing. The originals are certainly not above criticism mate.


Me and Mr. Enclave have been pointing that out for quite a long time. It doesn't make any sense that the Enclave was unable to detect a giant tanker docking at the Rig.


Oh lord....

http://dnk-anais.deviantart.com/art/Fallout-3-forbidden-love-111797067

Why? it only has enough ammo left for another shot. What if they need the satelite fifty years from now but they've used up its last salvos on the Citadel. And without Prime the Enclave would likely believe they could liberate the pentagon from the brotherhood. The weapon also has a limited strike path, just because it was in position to fire on prime doesn't mean it was in position to fire on the citadel. It may have taken time for the two hundred year old satelite to repostion, recharge and reload so it could fire on another target. The loss of the relay station during the Prime attack may have also made them unable to communicate until contact was reestablished from the mobie base crawler.

I think your overestimating response time. By the time they'd see Prime being lifted over the wall he's halfway deployed. They call HQ aprise them of the situation and await permission to open fire. By then Prime is over the wall and deployed. The first sign of attack was the giant robot being lifted over the walls.

A hundred and fifty years of automation and everything according to schedule and a plan. Its likely the Oil Rigs defenses were fully automated, they didn't detect anything because the systems only put out an alert if no IFF was provided. Everyone would simply carry the assumption that it was according to someones plan to someones sechedule they just didn't need to know.

Which is a plausible explanation aside from the moment when the Brotherhood were breaching Adams. At this point, why wasn't the Bradley utilized?

And if this was indeed the case, then why didn't an assault on the Citadel occur then?



Which is probably the best explanation one can provide. I would still imagine that someone somewhere on the Rig was monitoring the system when the Oil Rig docked. Surely some sort of indication of the Tanker docking would have been given? Regardless whether or not an IFF was provided.

If nothing else, was no-one outside and could visually see the tanker?

Apparently not it would seem.

Oh what-ever, if your just going to deflect everything with, 'criticise the originals too, even when it's not part of the conversation!' then what's the bloody point? You know I've [censored]ed about the absurdity of not detecting a [censored] Oil Tanker docking at a rig probably more than you - as it is specifically in my interests to do so - , especially when the whole premise of the Oil Rig being even able to reach the damn place at-all is it's explicitally detected and recognised by the Oil Rig's defensive systems.

So I'll refer you back to the Vertibird's and how God-damn ridiculous it is that the Enclave are defeated in Fallout 3, if you have some bile to get rid of make a "bash the originals" thread and I'll detail equally how it's ridiculous that the Enclave was ever defeated in Fallout 2.

Seriously old boy there's having a legitimate greivence and then there's taking offence to me not raising issues that were neither on my mind nor part of the immediate conversation; the short-comings of the originals, which I only heard about and played in the run-up to Fallout 3's release in any circumstance, do not excuse the purposely written tactical ineptitude and willful disregard of what they themselves have established.

Given that Fallout 2 confirms the US Army to still exist, ala Lt Col Dr Curling of the IRL US Army branch the Chemical Corps, then I refuse to believe that the tactics on display are becoming to that of the US Army; if Bethesda was unwilling to compromise on their story and yet build up the Enclave as so powerful then it's poor writing and blatant disregard of both pre-established and Fallout 3's canon - in addition to just being an out-right berwildering design decision if they weren't going to deliver.


Autumn has command and whilst I would love an opportuinity to point out, again, how the canonical Autumn is a self-serving, delueded, back-stabbing, amoral coward it's still in his interests to engage Prime on the spot. We're not looking at a seriously long response time as the artillery does kick in seconds later, if it can seemlessly follow LP across the bridge then I don't see the problem.

I still can not understand what happened at Raven Rock. The computer asks you to do what the Enclave were going to do anyway... release FEV. The Lone Wanderer should have been killed at Raven Rock.

The BoS is like the only faction with sufficient tech to be a legitimate threat to the Enclave, but they are ignored. The Enclave already has all the knowledge that would have been stored at the Pentagon, considering their tech is beyond advanced compared to anything that was remotely produced for use before the war.

Well given that Raven Rock was the Department of Defence's, Continuity of Government bunker, it's likely that the ZAX had everything from before the war backed-up on it already - Enclave probably have complete and in-tact records

Lol @ old boy.

The Enclave sounds like a British guy from a 1950s American made movie.

Come on now ol' boy lets get a few lad, chap, cheery-o, tea, huah huah huah huah thrown in for sport shall we now.

I do enjoy my Britishisms it has to be said, I love my country and, in-addition to being very much against popular culture anyway, I don't like the homogeneous "internet cutlure" that seems to just be replacing everything.

Though to be fair I got it from that great American novel The Great Gatsby .

Thats just the thing. I am not trying to bash any of them.
When I posted "stop me if youve heard ths one"
There was a pretty strong wall of "because bethesda!" preceeding it.
I am pointing out how petty i think it is to bash on the writing, when the games a lot of people will compare against are just as guilty.

i do apreciate that you and Lt Andronicus (and seldom a few others) will say how the originals also lacked in areas.


I agree with you that the vertiberds had no business sitting on the bridge and/or hovering right in front of Liberty Prime.
Then again.. How many times have any of the Enclave battled the Iron Giant?

If you want great writing, read a good book.

Don't look for it in a video game, but be thankful when it is decent.

The Enclave could've easily taken the citadel.

Why didn't they assault the citadel? Because they were too busy with other more pressing tasks I suppose...
Like trying to get the purifier to work, exploring the East Coast wasteland, chillin' at the MBC, laughing at Autumns attempt to overthrow their voice-god Eden, wondering why they weren't more busy.

But all jokes aside, the Enclave was spread out all over the Capital Wasteland and had many more objectives than we know of. They were fighting raiders, killing ghouls up north, trying to undermine the BoS, engineering a water based FEV virus, and even attempting to clear out the DC ruins.

Excuse the quality
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6Ww7XITAHg
Must have had old data on the US Osama Bin Laden raid and thought it could work against Super Mutants... it didn't.

But really I don't know why they didn't carpet bomb the Citadel; I mean go south of Arlington Library to that fortified raider camp, and a Vertibird swoops down x2 and bombs the living hell out of it.

Guess they got the wrong coordinates?

Bethesda can write; it's just not very good writing.

So, if so easy, I guess they could have taken over all of Cali as well, instead of doing nothing for 150 years.

And, you thus make FONV pre-history totally dweebish....

No. That makes no sense.

Taking the Citadel is a much easier task then taking California.

I agree.
http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/21500000/The-Comedian-watchmen-21507912-2560-1714.jpg
*takes a swig of bottled whiskey, relights cigar, and goes back to reading newspaper*

Taking one building vs. conquering and controlling an entire state.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ^___________________________^

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that taking one building is bit easier and requires less manpower, technology, planning, et cetera.

BoS are going to defend it tooth and nail, fight to the death, against what? Maybe 100 Enclave?

It is always easier to plan a defense than assault. Don't think the BoS just gonna sit inside the Citadel and watch themselves get bombed. That is artarded. They will form a defense.

And ya, IF it "easy" then they could wipe out buncha tribals. There was no NCR FO1, but there was an Enclave. They could have taken over, IF it so easy.

But it isn't easy.