Taking one building vs. conquering and controlling an entire state.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ^___________________________^

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that taking one building is bit easier and requires less manpower, technology, planning, et cetera.

You missed the point.

BoS are going to defend it tooth and nail, fight to the death, against what? Maybe 100 Enclave?

And ya, IF it "easy" then they could wipe out buncha tribals. There was no NCR FO1, but there was an Enclave. They could have taken over, IF it so easy.

Look, they found hope that PP would work. Were they protecting it against the BOS? probably. Were they simply attempting to protect it, regardless of if the BOS? Definately. Also, them setting up a defensive, does not mean that they would be on the offensive against he BOS. So even if it were solely to defend against BOS, it doesnt mean anyting in relation to an offenseive against them.

As someone that was in the US Navy and took plenty preventative maintenance classes, its also completely ridiculous to think that a stucture would stay at sea for 200+ years. It would be falling apart. The entirety of the antagonists existence in the fallout universe hinges on a something that is utterly impossible.

The best you can do is claim SCIENCE! saves the day, making it possible.
To which I would say, thats a SCIENTIFIC crane and we arent outside by the time the battle has begun, so we cant see what happened in the first few seconds of the battle. .

It has always somewhat boggled my mind that guys who obviously played Warhammer 40k have such poor military strategy. Then again, they prolly were not that good...lol.

It wasn't plot holes it was because The Citadel was the pentagon and that is whole lot of wasted info and tech if they blow it up or damage it.Not to mention liberty prime because if they destroy liberty prime then they can't reverse engineer him to make more of him and once again that would be great tech wasted

You missed the sarcasm of if it so"easy".

And no, I am not suggesting only 100, I am assuming Enclave not stupid enough to commit all their troops to one battle.

And, like I said, Legion took over a state in 30 years, and did so without the advantages the Enclave had.

Same with NCR.

Why didn't Enclave do the same thing? Oh...plot convenience.

The Enclave could've easily taken the citadel.

No, because they're a xenophobic group that believes everybody besides themselves are mutants who should be enslaved or killed.

Forget that one?

If you look at the force field's positioning and the placement of Enclave Soldiers they are all along the roads from the Pentagon all of the way to the Jefferson Memorial. They are nowhere else and Lyons proves to be a mentally handicapped leader by sending all of his men straight at them like they're in Medieval Times with swords and axes instead of guns and laser rifles. So how Bethesda set it up the Enclave thought the BoS was the only real threat, they set up their best defenses, and then they got stomped out by a giant robot that BS says is made of cameras.

It wasn't 200+ years. It was 180 and I would just think they made it durable in case it was blockaded in by the Chinese for a long period of time.

And no, I am not suggesting only 100, I am assuming Enclave not stupid enough to commit all their troops to one battle.

And, like I said, Legion took over a state in 30 years, and did so without the advantages the Enclave had.

He is talking about the Enclave having the ability to get in on the ground floor, when there are no factions asserting any dominance over the wastes of the west coast.

Evlbastrds point isn't hard to grasp people. He is talking about the Enclave having the ability to get in on the ground floor, when there are no factions asserting any dominance over the wastes of the west coast.

Kinda hard to grasp when the topic is about the Enclave taking the Citadel. But ya know, whatever.

he is making a comparison. If it should have been easy to take the citadel, then it should have also been easy to get in on the ground floor when the wasteland was young. But they didn't, just like they didn't try to take the citadel.

Alright so just so we are clear, you two are critiquing the original Fallout 2's writing correct?

Fine by me, I can get on board. Lets iron it out.

1. Doesn't really make sense that the Enclave waited so long on the Rig before acting.

2. Doesn't make sense that a massive oil Tanker was unable to be detected while docking at Control Station Enclave.

3. Doesn't make sense that the Enclave did not attack the Citadel right off the bat or was unable to defeat the brotherhood in this manner.

4. Doesn't make sense that the Enclave was apparently unable to deploy the Bradley at any point against the Citadel including when they were being overrun at Adams.

In conclusion, the Enclave has been getting royally screwed with regards to writing ever since they arrived on the scene.

Kinda hard to grasp when the topic is about the Enclave taking the Citadel. But ya know, whatever.

We talk about shades of grey, but I think it is mostly due to them being antagonists and needing to lose. at least as far as canon goes.

1. Doesn't really make sense that the Enclave waited so long on the Rig before acting.

2. Doesn't make sense that a massive oil Tanker was unable to be detected while docking at Control Station Enclave.

3. Doesn't make sense that the Enclave did not attack the Citadel right off the bat or was unable to defeat the brotherhood in this manner.

4. Doesn't make sense that the Enclave was apparently unable to deploy the Bradley at any point against the Citadel including when they were being overrun at Adams.

In conclusion, the Enclave has been getting royally screwed with regards to writing ever since they arrived on the scene.

Of course, the great paradox with the Enclave is that they are simultaneously a faction that is supposed to win and destined to fail.

In other words, the Enclave has all of this military power and tech as just about every tactical advantage in the book, but they simply cannot win because 1. in Fallout 2 had they won it would have meant the end of the series and 2. in Fallout 3 they were the "bad guys" and Bethesda never lets a "bad guy" win.

Ergo we have these problems in writing which mean that the Enclave loses to convenience, chance, and bad luck alone.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/anology

You may want to check that out if you want to pass some college level English courses. Or just about any course, actually.

A few possible reasons:

Numbers. It appears that the Enclave isn't a very big operation. 15 squads of troops might have been a lot when they're still trying to control other areas of the wasteland. Also, the Brotherhood eventually had the control scrambler, meaning the Deathclaws would turn on them.

Bombing the BOS would destroy the Citadel, this would deny the Enclave access to Liberty Prime and probably a lot of other military secrets as well. This is probably the most likely reason, if they knew about Liberty Prime, or just knew in general there was a lot hidden in the Citadel, destroying it would not be a good idea.

Before Liberty Prime was completed, the Enclave did not see the Brotherhood as a primary threat, instead their objective was to establish a presence and take over locations. Also, Vertibirds aren't all that strong, one hit of a missile launcher or Fat Man, or just a few hits of a minigun, gatling laser, or turret will take it down. Plus there's never anything to indicate they have enough of them to drop in that many troops, and the Citadel is pretty hard to access from ground level.

Just a few ideas.

We have no reason to believe that the Enclave knew about liberty prime, and the Enclave already had much more advanced technology than the BOS, so they dont need anymore tech. And still they have to be at least a couple of hundred, maybe even a thousand troops in the wasteland. they couldnt spare 50 or so to take out their biggest threat to securing the Capital Wasteland? I don't buy it.

Again, I think they could take it, but at what cost? You guys have always put Enclave numbers as small, so what would be acceptable casualties, and how would that set them back in further operations?

None of the writers in any of the games have approached military ops in a very good way. But, you have to assume it on the to-do list, but enter the LW and there goes that.

Look at the bark on this one. Good comeback.

Isn't it an odd comparison between taking the mainland when nobody was around and a heavily-manned Pentagon? One has the Enclave fighting mutated creatures and other such things, the other has them fighting a group of well-trained, well-armed Brotherhood men.

I think a couple thousand troops for the Enclave would be overestimating them by a large margin. Their total population ( with scientists, engineers, women, and children ) by Fallout 3 would be under 500 I suspect. It may also take more than 50 troops to capture the Citadel.