Again, I assume you talking why not attack before they take Project Purity.

Well, they probably do not calculate the BoS to be a threat. So, main goal is to take, and fortify the Jefferson Memorial.

Seeing how it would take some time to fortify defenses, if LW is concentrating on just this, you have what? 4 or 5 days before RR gets destroyed?

Been awhile since I went through MQ of FO3, but I think it PP take over, Vault 87, RR boom.. players can take their time...but did the LW? The heroes of these games, have generally taken care of business. I would imagine once PP takeover was done LW was on a mission of destruction.

Ermmmm. If Deathclaws that much of a problems, panzy wastelander tribals would of been wiped out. If tribals and Vault People can survive, and go on to create a Nation, I think the Enclave could of done it.

2. The BoS same size 2077-FO1? I don't think they worried about carbon signatures or overpopulating, which means lots of the old fun fun time. Same with the Enclave...as the newlywed game would say, lotsa whoopie going on. Also, the crazy Enclave is a FO2 thing. There is no pure human doctrine in 2077. That was caused by years of cabin fever on a rig. So, no reason why they not leech from Vaults.

3. Again, if the LW concentrating on task at hand, it doesn't take long before RR is destroyed...and thus, LP active. LW is like Scooby Doo. All would have been golden if not for those medling kids.

Fair enough on all points. But one last thing, are you sure the Enclave wasn't pure-human in 2077 like they are in 2241? I've never encountered anything that said that.

Seeing how there were no ghouls or mutants in 2077, I think it is fair assumption. Why would they have a doctrine for something that doesn't exist?

Also, technically, Vault Dwellers are pure humans.

I do believe some people were turned into ghouls right after the bombs. http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Carol Carol was for instance. So given her situation it's safe to assume others were transformed within the year. The pure-human doctrine wasn't just against ghouls or super mutants, it was also against anyone not Enclave or anyone who wasn't a Vault Dweller. But the Enclave considered themselves the last form of pure humanity.

Well, this is all crafted from the poor implementation of the Enclave and because we do not know their history, when they formed, and if legit govt, shadow govt, it is just a big mess.

I believe they formed pre-war, and thus no anti-mutation agenda originally. I think the anti-mutant pure Human thing came along in the Richardson Era. We do know mass genocide was not the original plan, because they were experimenting on deathclaws and other research.

I'll heartily agree that it is a giant mess. The did most likely form pre-war, yes. True again, they were also developing new Power Armors before they came ashore.

It really isn't, there past just hasn't been largely told; is the NCR poorly implimented because we don't have the entire backstory of Vault 15?

Eh? We know NCR history from 2077 on. They were Vault Dwellers. It was over populated. Out of the Vault emerged 4 factions. One formed Shady Sands. Shady Sands became what we saw in FO1 and grew into what we saw in FO2, composed of most of the towns from FO1.

Enclave: know nothing. Don't know how many. If we go by FO Bible, they were pre-war shadow government, which you dispute, even though Bible is basically canon until proven different.

Then, they do nothing...nothing..more nothing. While the wasteland grows, they do nothing. They modify pre-war tech and produce pre-war tech. Still do nothing. Then find Mariposa. Do nothing. More experiments, then 5 years before FO2.. boom, Enclave.

We know nothing of their ideology until Richardson, or what they were doing, which is also debated. In the 150 some years, we know if like 5 things the Enclave did, and most of that was within the 30 years or so leading up to FO2.

We know more about every other faction in the game than the Enclave. And a lot of what we do know, or have minimal info on, is debatable.

No we dont. We dont know anything about the small tribes rise to power, where they got the mapower to take over friggin LA of all places and the rest of their territory; they go from begining to end with no middle at all. Junktown had more people, more trade amd more influemce than Shady Sands.

They go from tribe in the middle of nowhere to only wasteland super power wifh no moddle ground.


And I would say that Fallout 3 does start disputing that but whatever, Im not having this discussion with with you again.

Ypu have an agenda and youll make any evidence support them. Last year they had bases all.over the country that had lost contact and the rig and eden communicated with robots relaying messages. Now thehre a shadow government of rich old bastards who hired a load of poseidon employees, governments never contract private companies to build cog bases, the bedrooms on the presidential level are only ghere for an affair between richardson and his secretary and a gym on an oil rig is a luxury - even though you said the enclave also hired.private security.

Lets just drop it shall we?

i always accepted that the enclave were having some internal infighting...after all it is a shadow government / power [censored]

I image some secret double crossing fatcat to battle the president for power, both sides having equal support they did some assassination here and their until finally one of them gets the upper hand and wins. I imagine it also too several years of scouting and planning to execute an action, idc who you are, no organized super power isnt going to rush in head first into an unknown wasteland they believe is filled with deadly radiation

6 months of getting settled
4-6yrs of extreme infighting
1yr getting used to your position of power
2-4 years of scouting and planning

But this is just my random blabber theory... and yes i know there is a time gap

Erm yes we do. It all happens in Tandi's lifetime, and she and her pops are obviously great politicians.

And my beliefs on Enclave, who they are and what they did are irrelevant. Cuz the fact remains they didn't do jack, in the eyes of the wastelanders anyway. Everything was cloak and dagger. Obviously, if they did do something, they could have taken over the entire west. Seeing how tribals did.

But, people make the claim Beth writing svcks, and it all "plot convenience".

Guess what, so is FO2, and FONV.

In fact, I applaud Beth for being consistent in Enclave, as far as we know, being stupid and overconfident bumbling dorks.

Th3Y n0 t4K cUz B0th3rho0D PWNNN ALLlLLL w1d tHuR L4Z3RZZZ n thUr ee g00D gu1ze!!1!

The FoTA??? You mean the pacifist non violent FoTA enslaving a nation and taking over a state? I've not played Fallouts 1 & 2, but haven't heard of that one before. Unless you mean Caesar who was a former FoTA member and founded the Legion - key words being "former" and "Legion" not "FoTA".

And thats a satisfactory explaination for 80 years and unrivalled military dominance? Tandi talks real good?


I know they are. Thats why you have inconsistant theories all the time. All that matterd is that they are out there somewhere.


Not really. Even Cannibal admittes that the Vertibirds are ridiculous because they are, theres being stupid and stopping purpsely infront of libert prime just to get shot so that we can see him in action.

simple replay is becuse the game would of ended before it even could start a second one (wich involves the bethesda plot svcks bandwagon) the writing was not at its finest

Sure it does. Tim Cain, the guy who actually created the Enclave, had an explanation in that the Enclave did not start out intending to retake the mainland but to evacuate the entire planet. It never made it into Fallout 2 probably because he and the other original Fallout developers left to found Troika pretty early in development. It was going to go show up in Van Buren but that game obviously never got made.

The oil tanker infiltration on the other hand is [censored] stupid.

See, this is why I still don't understand your point.

You responded to the statement, "they didn't take the Citadel because of plot convenience" with "Well, the Enclave had plot holes in past games too!!1" by using a half-assed anology.

So let's see, why did I miss your point... oh, that's right! It was because you don't have one. Plot holes in past games do not excuse plot holes in Fallout 3, just like plot holes in Fallout 3 don't excuse plot holes in past games. This topic happens to be about the plot holes in Fallout 3. Your argument comes across as a pathetic attempt to protect the poor writing in Fallout 3, and it's really getting old. I mean "I applaud Beth for being consistent in Enclave being stupid"? Come on.

I thought it was obvious I was referring to Caesar. And it was a FoTA. A. Guess I should of said a former, so you wouldn't be confused. But yes, A Former FoTA formed a nation, took over a state, in 20 years or so, and, hilariously, the Enclave could not....

To be honest it's more than likely plot convenience/bad writing.
But if I had to think of a reason it would be that the Pentagon is a huge vast well of knowledge and tech or at least in the enclave's eyes anyway. Although it's annoying that there's another plot hole the player has to try fill out *sigh* .

Actually, I was trying to be funny towards old Enclave old boy.

I gave a reason to explain why invasion of citadel didn't take place.

Enclacve: step 1 collect underpants. The citadel.
step 2 something. Fortify defenses.
step 3 profit. LW interferes like the meddling kid that he is.

And @Okie: how does original plan to evacuate the planet, which was in the Bible and was a plan that was abandoned, explain 150 years of sitting on a rig? It doesn't. Because regardless, that plan did not work, way back in 2077.

I don t see how the Enclave winning in Fallout 2 would effect the series it's all about clever writing and making things work. I think it would of been cool and different to see the bad guys win for a change the oil rig infiltration was BS and Frank Horrigan could of probably killed the tribal with the slap of his pinky finger. Anyway it would been nice to be in the Enclave in Fallout 3 either as a soldier or a scientist killing what survived the FEV virus from Fallout 2 and rebuilding the wasteland. Mature rated games are not supposed be like candy land and the good guys should not always win if the price is right which in Fallout 2 it was for the Enclave they should of won making them lose just shows the lazy ness and lack of creativity from the writers oh let's take the easy way out.

They obviously had no intention of leaving in 2077 or even soon afterwards. Why do you think they set up long term experiments in the Vaults? So they could run off after studying how people act in isolated environments for about two weeks? Yeah that'll be helpful info. It was obviously a very long term plan that changed probably due to a combination of most of the Vaults being utter disasters, the general hazards of such a journey and the fact that the Earth turned out to be far more habitable than expected.

Like it or hate it the space flight angle accurately explains the Enclave's absence, their reappearance, purpose of the Vault Experiments and why their plans to retake the mainland seem so haphazard. Because they are haphazard since retaking the mainland was never the original plan.

Eh, if they weren't planning on leaving in 2077, pre-war, how on earth were they going to take off in the aftermath of nuclear war? I would imagine they planning on monitoring the Vaults from space.

But, they didn't take off, couldn't take off, and that plan was scrapped. I'm sure once the bombs started to drop it was time for plan B, but this still doesn't explain 150 years of butt sitting. It would take them about 5 years to figure out the mainland could be repopulated. Now, personally, I don't think they did nothing, but what they didn't do is take a more visible relief/reclaiming of the mainland.