False, it's not just rotting skin.

Ghouls are different than humans on a genetic level by virtue of constant, intense exposure to radiation. Most humans die, but ghouls mutated into something new that could survive, and even thrive on further mutations from radiation.

They aren't humans anymore.

by that logic shouldn't they kill all humans because raiders, gunners, the railroad, and the institute keep trying to kill them? It would be equaly stupid to kill all humans because some of them want to kill you. How can you justify wanting to kill all mutants because some of them want to kill you? How is it anything more than bigotry to think that way?

Couldn't we save ghouls like we saved Curie?

Monkeys? Yet another straw man. I do happen to support https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_ape_personhood. So what? So that's your argument?

most reasonable people would understand that these mutations are insignificant (green eyes versus brown eyes, black skin versus white skin, etc. etc.).

sorry buddy, I know you want apes to be able to be married and get guns and all that, BUT i aint buying it.

EDIT

Didnt mean to quote you anthropoid. using this forum on mobile is s bit tricky for som reason.

Sure, sure. "Most reasonable people" (like you, of course) and you have decided that the Significant line, the line which decides who's human and who's sub-human is the ghoul line. That's, like, totally different than all the other human/other lines that have been drawn in the past by your ethical fellow travellers.

Just a guess here, you never read The Chrysalids, did you?

Such disingenuous nonsense really is the mainstay of your contributions.

animals with near-human intteligance should deserve some basic rights, it is hard to draw the line between what those rights should be because we are the ones in charge so it is hard to be objective about how a very slightly lesser being should be treated.

Consider if their were a species on earth with above human intelligence, how would they detuman what rights to give you and would you want them to treat us the same as we treat apes by taking you from your home to be experimented on or taken to a zoo for this species to observe?

I think the legitimate response to your point of "insignificant mutations" would be, "yeah, same thing for ghoul."

There are at least two types of ghouls: 1 normal, and 2 feral. There are of course several leveled variants of the ferals.

We all know that, ferals cannot be "reasoned" with. They attack on sight, and if you do not escape them or dispatch them they will kill you and any living human (anything other than other ghouls I suspect). They are monsters. Arguably they too are also "humans" but humans that have been irrevocably transformed into deadly threats to life and human life in particular.

Raiders are also humans, but much like ghouls, they cannot be reasoned with (most of the time, I suppose Charisma perks might change that).

We don't really have too many of these "monster" things in real life, things that one justifiably "kills on sight." Among the sole examples that most of humanity would agree on: a. the Nazi regime between 1939 and 1945 (although some would disagree); b. rabid animals, or wild animals that have become a verified threat (generally when a bear attacks or kills humans most conservation entities regard killing it as a reasonable preventative). c. I suppose a criminal who is demonstrating a threat of harm more-or-less belongs in this category although it is more fluid.

Ghouls are categorically NOT a confirmed threat. Many of them are quite nice and helpful. They only possible justifications for hating them would be:

1. Bigotry (which your previous claims of them being "not human") seem to reflect, or

2. Some sort of argument that they are a "walking timebomb" in the sense that they inevitably are going to go feral eventually.

My knowledge of the lore is that, there is not much basis to fear any particularly ghoul is going to go feral at any time. I'm not even sure if it happens at all, except under exceptional circumstances.

Wouldn't Super Mutants and Ghouls fall into the category of sub species of Human?

By the way modern humans are a sub species, so claims that this is somehow racist is more than a little silly, but anyone knowledgeable on the subject?

Thats a good point. In Fallout 2 some people in Vault City talk about the plight of the Ghouls and wanting to help them but there dont have the means to do much more than ease their suffering. Its an on again off again thing in the lore that ghouls are constantly suffering from the radiation and mutations that afflict them. i thought that was supposed to be one of the drivers of feral ghouls, going insane from constant pain. Thanks to the memory den, there is now an option of transplanting their minds into new bodies. but that brings with it a whole host of new problems too. why not just transplant everyone's minds into fresh bodies at a certain age, ghouls or not? The settting starts to break down once you assume you have access to something like the Institute's mass produced designer bodies and the memory den.

As to the BoS, they hate basically everything that came about from playing with FEV and werent ghouls originally people exposed to trace amounts of FEV before massive radiation doses and it was the two of those that caused them to be able to survive as they do? The BoS view most commonly was "it would be better if ghouls went away" They want them only as a foot note in history books about abusing technology. But the BoS is going through a crisis of existence anyways and that old guard view is going to be hard to maintain in future games. Even as far back as Fallout 2 the BoS was dying off. Closing bases, numbers dwindling, their technology was failing and they didnt make anything new. The splinter faction from Fallout 3 is slightly more progressive and has a big jump in equipment thanks to winning against the Enclave but that just sets back their decline by a few years before they go back to not being able to take action against threats to them again.

Which makes sense. Procreate within the BoS. Don't go getting laid by wastelanders who have who knows what diseases and negative effects of radiation.

As for ghouls. Last I checked the BoS isn't leading ghoul extermination parties for non ferals, they just want them to stay away and don't feel bad if one becomes collateral damage.

The stench of Social Justice infects this thread. These people are ridiculous. It's not even close to real life "racism" or "genocide" and the BoS are light years away from Nazis. 99.98% of Ghouls are Feral and kill people to eat them. 99.98% of Super Mutants do it worse. SJW and their damn soap boxes projecting their narrow political ideology in all mah fictionz!!

You people would not survive the zombie apocalypse because you'd be to busy trying to hug zombies and fight for their rights instead of trying to survive. Guess that's a plus.

They're all sterile, so no, they are not a species or subspecies.

I don't understand what you mean by HSS is a subspecies therefore this isn't racist. How does that follow? We are a subspecies but that's a taxonomic technicality, we are the only surviving members of the genus.

I just came here to say the exact thing

I have a Ph.D. in biological anthropology, and know quite a bit about the subject of species distinctions and human variability. What is it you are asking?

That was an attempt to avoid the nonsense being thrown around on this topic comparing a fictional organisation that hates and kills two murderous mutated creatures (SM and ferals) to Nazis, I could image the sub human racist claims being lined up the moment I wrote sub species (sub human isn't exactly a pc word).

I have just spent a great deal of time removing posts that go into real world politics and racism and am still unsure I have gotten them all removed. That includes posts that quote such posts. Please note that real world politics and racism are not allowed for discussion here. So leave it out. You may discuss racism in the game and politics in the game but you may not make connect it or discuss it as it relates to real world political or racist conditions.

Should this recur in this thread, it will be locked and warnings will be issued.

I guess it would be is a Super Mutant still classifiable as the same sub species as modern humans, since they cannot interbreed, can live and thrive in conditions that would kill a human and I believe have changes in their DNA. Are the mutations enough to put them into a different sub species category.

Ghouls are I suppose still very close to modern humans, despite the damage to their bodies except for the ability to live and thrive in heavily Irradiated areas.

No, their brains literally decompose to the point that they go feral. That's how it works. This isn't the "underprivileged resorting to crime to survive" type of scenario. They go feral because the radiation and their age.

Yeah it's where I was confused too. We're taught in natural science courses now that taxonomy has been using DNA rather than physical characteristics.

Super mutants have been exposed to high doses of forced evolutionary virus, not to mention the insane amounts of radiation they've probably been exposed to as well. They're sterile, can't interbreed with other species and they are anatomically different from H. sapiens.

Considering it's an evolutionary virus (IIRC Master doesn't necessarily consider them human anymore) and their DNA has most likely been significantly altered, I can't imagine them being classified as H. sapiens.

I dunno about Ghouls. Their physiology is different from that of a human and their DNA has also been altered significantly due to heavy irradiation (and in old lore trace amounts of FEV). As far as I know, Ghouls cannot reproduce at all. In dialogue they call my PC a human, which implies they no longer consider themselves human at this point, but that could just be from prejudices they've endured already.

No feral ghouls are simply ghouls who brains have rotted, the damage drives them insane and they attack anything that isn't a ghoul......at least that has always been the lore as far as I know.

Indeed, that was I thought the point of the FEV, that it created new species from the old world normal ones.

Not that it matters anybody rational would regard Super Mutant as something to hated and exterminated (at least on the East Coast), where we have what three examples of non murderours killing machines Super Mutants.....I'm not counting the companion who spends most of his time saying he wants to eat somebody.

In the same way no rational person regards Ferals as anything not to be shot one sight.

Keep in mind that the lore now states you can convert to and from a normal human form and a super mutant form. I am not sure there is a real world comparison for something like that.

Still nope. They're sterile. A species, by definition, must consist of individuals capable of producing fertile offspring. Super mutants and ghouls are affected humans.

Ah, that is kind of a spoiler there, but I assumed that he was a special case.