Ok. Here we go again. lol



I think you are missing the whole point of the Nerevarine, fate, and the hero.



Usually history is written by historians who are either heavily subjective and know so, or trying to be apathetically objective and do so.
It is a 2 way deal, everyone needed the Nerevarine. The Nerevarine was the keystone in this saga, without him the entire crisis could never have been solved, the emperor's "plans" crumbled (I doubt he even knew what the heck was going on either) and fate could not have been deilvered. The Nerevarine was vital... But you dispense with this name as if he was some random drunk from a tavern, who just "hapenned" to save Tamriel. Uhuh, the Nerevarine by the fates was destined to be the Nerevarine. He could very well have been that random drunk, but he was still going to become the Nerevarine; get corprus, fullfill the prophecies of the Seven Visions and free the Heart, and the other drunk just died in a ditch somewhere. The Nerevarine was directed by powerful entities to his destiny, yes, but the "plans" of those people revolved around the Nerevarine, the Nerevarine did not revolve around the plans.



I don't agree with all that TSBassilisk said there. I do not think that the empire had it's disposal the power to completly eradicate Morrowind. If Tiber Septim has such great power, then why did he agree to an armistice? No, Septim did not have power enough to crush Morrowind and Three Living Gods and then still carry on his conquest of Tamriel. Morrowind would have crippled him and itself be destroyed in the process.



Either way, I started off asking why Nerevarine didn't take the throne, seeming that Nerevar the figure was a king. However, now since we know that could never have happened we're asking why didn't the Nerevarine kill Helseth, due to the apparent transgression made by the King on the Nerevarine.



The Dunmer will go back to the Daedra, I don't see them wanting to or being able to serve the Nine. It's a different mindset, an alien array of customs and would become simply another affront the history of the Dunmeri and their Chimeri ancestors. Saying that is like being a roman citizen and speculating that the Jews would all convert to the roman religion when the 2nd Temple was destroyed. They didn't convert, but now the roman empire is gone but judaism lives on.



Yes, the civil war was becuase of slavery. Same with america when it's slave trade was threatened, there was a civil war... My american history is as deep and an empty cup of tea, so I'll stop there. But that is not the point, and I'm not saying that Helseth is "evil", just that's he's a kniving bastard, a generic Hlaalu n'wah who says he wants the best for everyone, but secretly puts all his eggs in the House Hlaalu basket; leaving everyone else to starve.
No, Licoln was not evil at all, but the civil war was an evil thing and I think that slavery could have been abolished through social progression and reform. What's done is done, and we're talking Morrowind, not America.

Same with Helseth. I very much doubt that Helseth erupted civil war on the province of due to some "genuine concern for the beast races"... This coming from a man who uses the Dark Brotherhood to murder potential rivals, and even set them against his own mother. Hmm. Put him in a mushroom tower in the middle of the Boethian Mountains... There you go, a good Telvanni, not a good ruler of Morrowind I think.

The Ghostfence was sustained, I think, by the constant effort of the Tribunal. Take into account that it was a complete dome once, the sustained decline of the Tribunal has caused it weaken and shrink. The effort to keep Red Mountain contained wasn't simply a one-off job, it was a megalithic undertaking and a 3000 year long battle between stolen divinities. Any wise ruler would have aided the Tribunal, knowing that the Tribunal are the only ones who can keep the Blight at bay.



Prophecies are hard to measure out precisely, becuase you don't know when they end. It's equally hard to judge how much is definate and how much is temporal. Yes, prophecies are deadly things, and no wonder that Helseth, being a Hlaalu and in cahoots with the opressors believed himself an outsider, was scared. Still, that does not justify him. Helseth through all his apparent kindness has all the markings of the tyrant. The Nerevarine saved Helseth's kingdom, but he might as well have martyred himself to Almalexia.



Probably becuase the Nerevarine slaughtered all the nearest Dark Brotherhood.



Don't jump to conclusions; Oblivion ended on a cliffhanger and gave on conclusion. We don't know what's going to happen at all.

"Ceremonial puppet king?" - Basically that is what Helseth has been all his life. A puppet of the imperial state, a dark elf with clipped ears... And what does Helseth do when he gets his hand on any power at all? Plunges the entire province into civil war. Heh, great leader that.

While he's out there modernizing the Dunmer, doesn't he try to outlaw assassination next?



The Temple hasn't collasped. The Temple has survived for at least 1000 years off it's own back as the Tribunal went into seclusion. Necrom is still busy, day and night, bustling with the thousands of priests, attendants and mourners. Almalexia still has it's High Ordinators and shrines are prayed to every minute. Vivec is still one of the busiest cities in Morrowind. Most people don't even know that Almalexia or Sotha Sil are dead. Most people dont even know what Lorkhan is, let alone the complex metaphysics surounding the Heart and the Tribunal. It will take alot of time, even for the most pious to come to terms with what has happened. They probably will never understand it thoroughly, but what is real is that the Temple still holds the power it did a few days before the Nerevarine went to the Clockwork City, and a few days later.



Nar, just two big money bags ganging up on everyone else. You really think House Dres would give up slavery if they didn't have a bigger target in mind? Or another resource to monopolize on? Hlaalu = Moneys. Dres = Moneys.



We do not know those answer yet, but the Nerevarine was never prophesied to drive the outlander from Morrowind, but to free the false gods. All the prophecies are fulfilled, but we do not know the future.
The actions of the Nerevarine in Morrowind may very well spell the end of the imperials in Morrowind, it may not. Who knows? However, what prophecy never is good at is specifics. It never specified HOW the outlanders would be routed, but just somehow.

The theory of the Heart being one of the Towers comes to mind. The destruction of this important pillar of Nirn may have set the floor for the liminal barriers to go awry. Nerevarine may have set the floor for the Oblivion crisis to follow... After that? What will Oblivion set the scene to?



Even the lies of God are are true.



I don't trust anyone's interpretation on what Azura's says.

I'm pretty sure that the ghostfence will remain even if you complete the Tribunal MQ before doing the Morrowind MQ. Heck, it will probably stand even if you kill Vivec as well. Either way, I figure Vivec is doing all the work, because he has CHIM, and therefore has power over death. Besides, if the Ghostfence relied on the combined power of the Tribunal, someone would notice it would have gotten weaker when Almalexia killed Sotha Sil.


Oppressors? I hardly see the Empire as oppressors. They have brought free trade, freedom of religion, and the idea of abolishionism to Morrowind. If it weren't for the Empire, the Dunmer would still be kidnapping Argonians from Black Marsh, and torturing and killing anyone who disagrees with the Tribunal religionn. Not to mention that they laid the foundations for the outlander Nerevarine and even helped to fulfil the prophecy.. And supposedly the assassination attempt was because Helseth had been falsely informed about the Nerevarine being a threat. Whether he was lying or not remains to be seen. But I doubt his subsequent quests actually werer assassination attempts; the nature of them seemed to be more of tests of loyalty. As I said before, the rumors him are unproven.


Not all of them; most of them respawn. They're still there, just not with the writ for the Nerevarine.


He didn't start the civil war. Those that opposed abolitionism did. That's like saying that Abraham Lincoln plunged the United States into civil war.

And he's no puppet, he simply knows who his allies are. Most of his actions are in his own interest, not that of the Empire.

The Ghostfence was already deactivated when Almalexia and Sotha Sil had died.



Tiber Septim. Numidium. Legions. Conquest. Etc etc. Every empire is tyrannical. It's just how many statues are raised and books written glorifying it's works that makes you change your mind on the barbarity of how it came to be.



No they haven't. The Inquisition is completely unaffected by the empire. Daedra worship is surpressed. They help abolitionists slightly, but have not gone before the Tribunal Temple or the Grand Council and demand an end to it.

What freedom of religion? The imperial religion only brought with it some distant pantheon of apathetic and sanctamonious aedra, but I digress, they may have a few incarnations you meet along the way, they don't do much for Morrowind at all.

If you argue against the Tribunal Temple surpressing heresy and Daedra worship then you can equally argue that slaughtering millions for the expansion of an empire is equally wrong.



Again, I don't think the good ruler jumps to blind conclusions.



I seem to remember the duel with Karod as more of a biased death match, actaully. The King, in his ignorance wanted you dead.



Shame that.



Hmm, you're playing hot potato here. Whose fault was it? Well, lets presume that if Helseth did nothing, then no civil war would have happened. So, the chain of blame is logical. Civil War is one of the most terrible things a country can go through, it ruins the hopes and trust of the nation, the ruins the economy, and divides the people. Exactly what Morrowind doesn't need, especially after the fall of the Tribunal and Oblivion crisis.

Actually, you can do the Tribunal MQ before the Morrowind MQ, and if you do, I'm pretty sure that the ghostfence does not weaken.


Not every Empire is tyrannical. Specifically, this one isn't. The Imperial Cult is allowed to preach and cannot be stamped out by the Temple. While the Temple does retain a lot of its previous freedoms, it still must respect other religions. And given Frald the White's quests, the Legion is apparently allowed to oppose the Temple.


They were better than Almalexia. And it wasn't the Tribunal that protected Tamriel from Mehrunes Dagon with the Divine Barrier. And it wasn't the Tribunal that banished Dagon. Of course, they have done so in the past, but in doing so, Old Mournhold was destroyed. Not to mention that they preach tolerance, something that the Tribunal Temple has never done.


Morrowind was taken without bloodshed. And considering that all of Tamriel was at war, the only way to unite the land is to conquer. Not to mention that Tiber Septim had a vision of Akatosh in the Reman Tomb and had the ability to wear the Amulet of Kings.


Helseth may have wanted to see if the Nerevarine (or just hero that slaughtered the Dark Brotherhood, killed Barilzar, and destroyed his goblin army single-handedly) is for real or a phony. After all, he could only use the real deal if he wanted him to get close to the temple to find out about the Fabricants. But that's just speculation, not unlike your theory.

Just as the American Civil War was necessary to abolish slavery, so was the civil war in Morrowind. It's just something that has to happen sooner or later, preferably sooner. If he didn't, then the beastfolk would still be in chains, and Dres would still be kidnapping innocents of all races for the slave trade.

It is clear to me that you're against the Empire and I'm in support of it, so we're not going to see eye to eye. Therefore we could argue endlessly over several threads. Or we could just accept each other's view. Of course, there's still other stuff to argue about.

I think this is purely in-game mechanics. I often did the Tribunal MQ before Morrowind. Nice to whoop Dagoth Ur back into mortality with my old blade back in my hand.



Were using alot of double edged arguments here, but basically we're still talking about Helseth here, I don't want to get drawn into an argument considering the varying moralities of a million excuses.

However, I think you will find that every empire is tyrannical. If you trace back to the methods it used to gain prominence, it's is always by beating the brains out of all the weaker guys. This empire is no different, I don't think it is that hard to see really. Why would the empire need to build all these Legion Forts everywhere if it wasn't prepared to crush resistance? Tyranny and empire go hand in hand. The Tamrielic Empire is not a missionary empire. It's an army based army; the army comes in, bashes a few heads togeher, then plants the shrines and missionaries. I do think the imperial cult was allow to go unhindered becuase of the armistice. Fair do.



The Aedra didn't protect Tamriel from Ur, and I don't think they could. In fact it was the aedra in anger who threw the Heart to Mundus to begin with.

Ahh yes, tolerance. Both are teaching it, but the Tribunal aren't the ones who are storming around all over the continent with legions of troopers. The Ordinators did more to protect Vvardenfell than the legions did, Wulf, the "avatar" or what have you was a nice touch though. If anything I applaud that, though how effective that coin was is to determined. Either way, Morrowind was taken into the empire without bloodshed. It was not conquered. The battles fought between the imperials and Dunmer proved useless to both sides.



At war with the Cyrodiilic Empire. It seems the best justification for the empire is "peace", but enforced. We all know that the secret to peace cannot be enforced... But either way, peace dosen't last forever.



Yes, again, plots with plots. Or, paranoia within paranoias.



I don't think that civil war was neccesary for Morrowind at all. Maybe for america, but Dunmer are not human, Imperials are. If Helseth had the power, he could have used the Council and worked with the Temple to help remove slavery from Morrowind. Helseth's way was not wise, inconsiderate of both beast and mer, House and Temple, Hearth and Kin.

I am no supporter of slavery, but no supporter of civil war either. Things would have changed, regardless.




Hmmm. As so far as the only justification for the Empire is cliche remarks about freedom, peace and trade, biased opinions based upon pillars of foreign civilisation, if you attempt to prove the worth of the empire through empty and conflicting morals then no, I am not a fan of the Empire.

If, however you make the argument that the Cyrodiilic Empire is vital for the stability of the liminal barriers and keeping the peace and faith between gods and men, then yes, I accept that the empire is a neccesary thing. I'll still moan as much as I like about it though.

They protected Tamriel from a much darker force than Dagoth Ur. At least his intentions, while unbalanced and unstable, were noble. Mehrunes Dagon only wanted to destroy, as that was his sphere.

When the entire continent is at war, the only way to bring peace is to unite the continent under your banner. Morrowind had it easy; they had the benefits without bloodshed, and they got to define their own laws, as immoral as those laws may be.

As I said before, we're not going to agree.

Well, perhaps. I think Beth went overboard with cliche here with all the "Destroy! Destroy!" going on. But I dissagree here too! Mehrunes Dagon's Dremora cheiftans in Battlespire say that they overtly admire the works of mortals, that we are ingenuitive and spontaneous, things, wholly alien to Daedra.

As the Daedric Count Imago Storm says;



This I think there is more to Dagon than simply the "DAGON MAD, DAGON SMASH" meme. But, I agree with you, that the work of the Aedra here was absolutely pricesless. Untill the imperials allowed Camoran to screw it all up.

We may not agree, but that's the whole point of forums!

Maybe your Nerevarine was a tool but mine didn't serve 'willingly'. Mine used the empire as much as it used him. When Caius fled to Cyrodiil, he left him as the highest ranking Blades Operative whereby he preceded to hijack the eastern intelligence network for his own ends, placing his cronies from Thieves Guild, Morag Tong thralls, and Camonna Tong malcontents, building up his own formidable intelligence network that used double agents to dupe the rest of the Blades hierarchy that weren't influenced or killed off by the Nerevarines' minions.

With his spies and assassins watching his back and his interests, he rose through House Redoran but shunned the Temple rule over the warrior house, causing great strife among the traditionalist nobles but gaining the worship of the lower rank sons of herders and Ashlander outcasts. Slaying the old ruler Bolvyn Venim and dispensing with the old guard Redoran, he united the scattered Ashlander tribes and raised these hardy warriors of the ash wastes as his foremost warriors. The destruction of the Sixth House and Dagoth Ur only secured his divine status as Nerevar Reborn. He played along with Helseth and his paltry court intrigues to secure a temporary alliance against the Tribunal, House Indoril, and the Ordinators, but he connived behind Helseth's back; using the Abolitionists to preempt violent slave revolts (inspiration taken from Brother Juniper's Twin Lamps mod) that left only one option but to kill the rebel slaves and the Nerevarine led the coalition to wipe them out, earning ever greater prestige from the Dunmer that Helseth couldn't match.

He never held loyalty to an empire that wiped out a family and tribe he never knew in some far northeast corner of Cyrodiil for the sake of expanding its borders--profane, cunning, diabolically charismatic, and intelligent, his only ambition since donning the royal signet ring moon-and-star was to rule. He is a warlord khan through and through. He and his Ashlander hordes exploded out of Vvardenfell and conquered the rival great houses, the eastern legions, Helseth and his paper kingdom in the south. All the nations were hit hard by the Oblivion Invasion but none more so than Cyrodiil, leaderless and divided. The Nerevarine has declared his plan to his newly invested Grand Council at Mournhold to invade Cyrodiil. A scenario that will be lovingly roleplayed in the near future.

You see I make the lore work for me. That is roleplaying. Beyond the confines of a simple video game yes, but not beyond the imagination.

Why didn't the Nerevarine kill Helseth? Perhaps he wasn't supposed to. I was reading the last part of the prophecies and found something interesting.




What if by allowing Helseth to live the Nerevarine actually completes this part of the Prophecy. By allowing Helseth to rule he may well "speak the law"as it were.
Also, thanks to Helseth, Morrowind now seems to be more unified and stronger than it has ever been, since Nerevar.



And Hyantamr said that Helseth was a tyrant. To that I only have to say one thing: So what? Like you said:


Like it or not but Helseth seems to be a perfect example of any normal Morrowind politician. He only is a tyrant when you compare him to our modern ideals.


And lastly, the Empire may be a good thing but it is still a tool of oppression. They force their alien ideals on the dunmer and have robbed them of their freedom. Ideals like freedom of religion, free trade and free speech might be a good thing, but when they are forced upon a population than that is still oppression.



And to Dirty D: Your story seems nice, but might not be totally relevant to this discussion. Furthermore, I doubt that Redoran would ever go against both the Legions and Indoril.

Lastly the Redoran have got the Nords and the destruction of Ald-Ruhn by daedra to worry about.

Civil Wars rarely leave countries stronger than what they were beforehand. And if the Daedra had got in so far as Ald-Ruhn, and destroyed it then Morrowind couldn't possibly be any stronger.

Civil Wars often leave the country stronger than before. A civil war is the culmination of a long process of collapse or relations and government. A nation is weakest right before the civil war, and if the issue was resolved, the stronger was stronger than ever. Russia is a good example. Even the United States. Before the Civil War, the nation was paralyzed by the issue of slavery and no progress was being made. Afterward, the North pushed their agenda, and the Gilded age began, with much more money flowing into the country, creating the US as an industrial nation. The railroads were finally built, and much more happened.

The South was weakened, though no doubt, but the nation as a whole was stronger than ever. In Morrowind, there is no opposing party. Hlaalu and Dres have the exact same agenda and is an alliance. Hlaalu is married to a Dres. And Telvanni really doesn't care about politics, so they can push their capitalist agenda without opposition.

And why is this bad? Would it be better if Redoran or Indoril ruled? This should be even less appealing to our modern, Western sensebilities. Would it be better if Nerevarine ruled. The lone warriors are necesarilly the best rulers.

And Ald'Ruhn was never very important. It was not a major trade center, or population center. It's only real importance was an important religious center (like all Vvardenfell cities, since it was only opened not so long ago) and as the center of House Redoran (a broken house refusing to bow to Helseth). They started in Ald'Ruhn, by the way. It's not like they came from a border.

Fortunately for Redoran, they were busy fighting the Nords when Ald'ruhn was destroyed. And half of the city was destroyed when the Skar was reanimated. The rest probably played out like an old Godzilla movie.

That aside, House Dres did benefit from the end of slavery.

It's funny, but the Skar seems like one of the best (and only) places to take cover i the event of an attack (I guess the Imperial fort would also do, but it is a bit to far away to run to if they were taken by surprise, like Kvatch). I wonder if there were many people still inside the shell when they reanimated it.

Edit: But I guess it isn't so funny. And completly unrelevant to the question at hand.

It seemed to me that Helseth pretty much loosed the abolition on Morrowind pretty fast. A quick and secret deal with Dres ensured that. It wasn't a long process at all, that is why Redoran and Indoril could not cope. But, if you're talking about collapse of relations and government, then perhaps the failing imperial strength and interests in Morrowind could be slightly to blame. I'm sure the withdrawal of the legions prompted Helseth into some action.

Nations aren't stronger just after wars of any kind. It gets stronger only after the victor has the power and makes reparations to itself. And you're forgetting that the Bolsheviks were only able to win that civil war becuase Russia had just come of it's own World War. They weren't all powerul then either, and needed numerous 5 year plans to scraqe up to any degree of military and economic proficiency.

And you seem to know the outcome of the civil war. I did not think it was written yet. Or are you presuming that the Morrowind civil war acted out exactly the same as the American?

Anyway, you seem to be judging Helseth's goodness on the actions he does, though we do not yet know whether they will be fully beneficial to the future of Morrowind yet.

Also, in response to the original question, IF the Nerevarine did fulfill the Ashlander prophecies, the imperials would have been a little blacked up.



And yet empty imperial power structures remain, the Proconsul of Narsis still sits there doing nothing as usual, and Helseth? Why did he survive the Nerevarine?

Ironic, that, since it had the most to lose. But it's not untrue. I imagine that it was part of the alliance between Helseth and Dres that they be allowed given Indoril's lands in exchange for their political support.

Where did it say that there was a civil war? The only info I found was in the PGE 3rd Edition, which stated that freeing the slaves was "bloody".

On the TIL timeline.

But I think that Helseth's side won is implied. The fact that Dres, Hlaalu and Telvanni are incorporating Indoril's lands kind of says that Indoril is done for, and the fact that Redoran's been invaded and their capital has been destroyed suggests that Redoran isn't doing so hot.

The Telvanni own considerable amounts of lands, on Vvardenfel and in mainland Morrowind. It's just their apathy that caused thier council vote to defunct to Helseth. They don't actually care, and none of them fought for Helseth.

A considerable ammount of Hlaalu and Dres also refused to fight for abolition... I mean, you don't actaully think that the Telvanni really cared about abolition or the war did you? If anything, the Telvanni became closer to House Redoran in defending Morrowind from the Nords and closing the Oblivion gates in far east Cyrodiil. Don't presume that any House is fighting for a right cause, any of them would gladly snatch away any land of any House if it were on the ropes. Helseth isn't being pragmatic, though it seems he is, a pragmatic and truely manipulative leader could have used the Council to to solve all his problems. He is simply opportunistic but blind. His lifeline is his mother only.

Redoran has holdings on the mainland, also.

Redoran controls nearly all of the western borders with Skyrim and Cyrodiil. That is why the battle with the Nords was so prominent with Redoran.

Yes, they do. But that is the whole point. Like you said, the Ashlanders say that Nerevar will remove the Empire from Morrowind. It isn't mentioned anywhere in the prophecies. So the Ashlanders can say all they want, but if it isn't the prophecies than the Nerevarine will not do it.





And Redoran probably only controls the lands that border Skyrim. I think the Hlaalu territory bordering makes Cyrodiil more sense, since Cheydinhal is also ruled by an Hlaalu.



And I would also like to put forth a new theory: It wasn't only Azura who sent the Nerevarine against Dagoth Ur and the Tribunal. In my opinion, the Nine Divines had a say in it as well.

I found it strange that the only people who have really gained anything from the Nerevarine incident are the people who support the Empire. I was also amazed that Uriel Septim would send a prisoner to Morrowind if he was prophecised to drive out the Empire.

This simple fact led me to conclude that maybe the Nine Divines told Uriel in a dream to send a prisoner to Morrowind, just as they would tell him about the Champion of Cyrodiil six years later.

Perhaps the Nerevarine's goal wasn't only to stop Dagoth Ur, but also, by destroying the Tribunal and putting Helseth on the throne to extend the Nine's power in Morrowind.

I think that you just dislike Helseth. You accuse me of having no evidence but then you have tons of speculation. I mean where do you get this evidence. The only evidence you have to back you is one reference on the timeline. With this you say he is a awful leader, even though their will be some unrest in a time of such upheaval. I don't know if he is a great leader, but he seems to be modernizing his nation and trying very hard to stabilize it after a time of extreme cultural and political upheaval.

He , like many others, is probably dissapointed about how Bethesda let the events in Morrowind unfold. I know a lot of members hated Helseth after playing Tribunal and now can't stand the fact that he has won. Furthermore, House Redoran was one of the most popular Houses. Many of it's fans can't seem to accept that, unles a miracle happens, it's days are numbered.
Right now, Helseth seems the best Morrowind could wish for. Indoril and Redoran were stuck in the past and not even the Nerevarine could have persuaded them to change with the times. If presuasion doesn't work than war seems the only option.
Helseth may be only acting out of self-interest, but his interests ironically coincide with what is probably best for Morrowind.

The Aedra have done completely NOTHING since they created Nirn. People are saying they're dead, i don't know, but it seems like a good explanation. And the Nerevarine wasn't prophecised to drive out the Empire, the Ashlanders WANT him to drive out the Empire. And Helseth would have been King with or without the Tribunal. And the whole of Tamriel gained something from the destruction of Voryn and his robot. If he would have won it would have been: TES IV: Voryn's Happy World Of Immortality And Robots.