Indoril Nerevar was a king of Morrowind, am I wrong here? So why doesn't the Nerevarine take the throne that rightfully (I use the word fleetingly) belongs to him/her?

That may sound simple, but if King Helseth sent the assassins after you, then why didn't the Nerevarine bop him off? After doing the earth-shattering things that the "god-killer" had done, why not? What could possibly be any worse than killing just another figurehead of power?

(It could have been better, since bopping off Helseth would have prevented the civil war later on.)

Also, are there any sources on what House Indoril's reaction was to the Nerevarine, and his aftermath? I know they couldn't stand up to the change that Helseth was planning and with Redoran got abit aggravated but I don't think the Nerevaine was associated with that. How did they respond to the second coming of the ancient patriarch of their House?

If someone claiming to be the resurrection of Abraham Lincoln showed up, would he be able to rightfully step in the Oval Office as the President? Okay, bad comparison, republics don't work in the same way as monarchies do; but you should get the idea. Maybe a resurrected Charles I for the United Kingdom? I'm sure it would fly well.

Also, if the original Nerevar was merely Hortator, then he wasn't a true king but just the guy in charge of the country for the duration of the war.

Hlaalu Helseth is the king of Morrowind. Indoril Nerevar was the Hai Resdaynia. Those are two very different things.

Morrowind is under a different system of government now. The terms of the Armistice dictate that the Grand Council still retains power the Houses' respective districts, but the Empire controls Morrowind in the long run, and Helseth holds the veto. The Nerevarine, therefore, is not the king of Morrowind by right, because rights have a tendency to change.

As were the Nerevarine, at least on Vvardenfell.

Indeed. Depending on your interpretation of the Battle of Red Mountain, Nerevar was either the Hai Resdaynia and the joint ruler of Resdayn before the War of the First Council, or he had always been the Hortator and Vivec's protege, as he is portrayed in the 36 Lessons.

I wanted to say
'Because Helseth is G'
But then I realised how idiotic that sounds.
Really what I think it is is this: Lord Indoril Nerevar was basically a Dunmer General who happened to be liked by Azura.

Sigged.

"Dunmer don't have kings, that's just Imperial rubbish", That's what the some of the Dunmer in Mournhold tell me.

Possession is ten-tenths of the law when it comes to thrones. Helseth has it, and the Nerevarine doesn't. The Nerevarine could take the throne by force about as well as Hamlet could take out Uncle Claudius: even if physically possible, political suicide.

I fully expect Prince Harry to put the boot in King Arthur if he shows up to stave off global warming.

Let's compare the Nerevarine and Helseth:

An individual who rose from nothing and defied all odds to become ruler of the Veloth hordes of Vvardenfell--A Nerevar Incarnate that has spilled his blood and guts uniting warlike tribes and clans to defeat a common enemy in Dagoth Ur and perhaps going further and ridding Morrowind of the occupying Imperial forces.

Then there is Helseth whose sole labors consisted of riding on the skirts of his mother and poisoning his uncle and his nephew to be next in line for a throne in Mournhold, protected and propped up by foreign Imperial control.

My ash blasted Khan Incarnate dragged Helseth down from his ill-gotten throne by his clipped ears and gave him a taste of his own medicine.

Killing assassins is easy, killing the Imperial legions, not so much. Helseth's Cyrodill's man. They hold all the marbles, so they call the shots. Helseth was still in power beacuse the empire willed it so. Now that the empire s shattered, I'm sure Helseth will be usurped without his backers.

but then so is attacking deeply held traditions and customs of your own noble allies whom you've barely cemented alliances with.

Helseth murdered off everyone in line before him for position as King.

The Nerevarine killed gods. As Hortator of Morrowind (Maybe Grandmaster of Hlaalu), I'm sure hes somewhere up there in the line of becoming king.

Why doesn't he(Nerevarine) pull a Helseth and murder everyone off before him in line? It shouldn't be too many people and I bet most would just hand over the title.

Helseth's supposed murders were never proven. That's why he could become king. And the Nerevarine is the war leader of Morrowind; his job isn't to sit around on a throne, its to be out there removing threats to the people.

I was supposing that the Nerevarine have easily killed Helseth. Almalexia or Hler could have too. Hler is an assassin as well, and it would be have more than easy to poison the king.

Considering that there were little to no imperial consequences to the mysterious death of Llethan, the death of Helseth wouldn't have been much different. It could have easily been explained away.

I interpreted the meaning of "rid Morrowind of all it's ills" as bopping off blatingly bad apples like Helseth without much Hamletry.

To me this boils down to a what-you-make-it thing - highly debatable and practically unsolvable, but hey for teh sake of discussion, ill take a crack at it:

If you wish to believe that due to the Tribunal Dragon Break that Nerevar was a mere general then it's safe to say that the Nerevarine isn't entitled to jack crap besides what he gained by prophetical consumation. Protector of Morrowind probably isn't on the same level as king and the people of Morrowind probably see him as a mere "war hero" but on a much MUCH grander scale.

Also, the Nerevarine does work for Helseth, i.e., submits to his command so, theoretically, he could also just be seen as just a "champion of the King" or some jive, but I've basically already said that. you'd THINK someoen who basically and indirectly saved Tamriel would be Morrowind king like some U.S. President war heroes, but apparently not.

I think it all simply boils down to the fact that Helseth has Imperial backing, and that's all he needs.

Hypothetically speaking, lets say the Nerevarine killed Helseth. Not only would he be persecuted by Imperial Law, but he would lose his standing in the Blades, and be seen as a prime enemy of the Empire in the entirety of Morrowind. The Royal Guard would attempt to slay him, or at least capture him, and all other Imperial presence in Morrowind that became privy to the knowledge that he killed Helseth would be on his tail.

Would it cause a civil war? Most likely. If the Nerevarine murdered Helseth, he'd probably gain the support of Redoran, Indoril, and Telvanni quickly, while Dres and Hlaalu would likely side with the Empire, in order to maintain their positions, and perhaps further them, once the traitor(s) was put down. Or maybe they'd eventually side with Nerevarine, in hopes of ridding Morrowind of the Empire, and become the most, monetarily speaking, Great House in a freed land? Though I personally would highly doubt that, as they're in good with the Empire anyways.

Once the Nerevarine attempted to claim his right as ruler of Morrowind, I also believe that the Great Houses would like to abolish the position of "king". Not only that, but the Ashlanders would most likely expect some kind of initial aid in establishing themselves with the rest of the Great Houses, which could possibly cause a civil war right there. It would all depend on how the Nerevarine was portraying himself upon usurping the throne.

I think in the end however, it would be an ill-fated attempt. Though I killed Helseth in my game, I think doing in in TES reality would be political suicide. The Nerevarine could most likely do much more for Morrowind, representing the needs of the Ashlander tribes and the Great Houses in the face of Helseth. And with his association to the Blades and service to the Empire, they would see him more as an ally then the "savior" of the Dunmer people.

So from what I'm understanding from this, Neverar, and thus the Neverine, were just military leaders like the Consuls of Rome or the Dictators chosen by the Roman Republic in times of war, with some sort of other ruling body as for government in times of peace. If so, then would that not answer the question about his claim to the thrown? I would have to go with what was said earlier on the topic, I mean, say Tiber Septim came back, reincarnated, does that mean he should be put in charge of the Empire after his time had already passed? It doesn't appear to quite work that way without some major internal strife such as civil war erupting, as no one is going to all jump and follow some guy who claims the thrown on the basis he's the supposed reincarnate of a once great ruler.

With the assassination of an accepted ruler, by the Empire and many others in Morrowind, killing him would no doubt be opening up a major can of worms. What of Hlaalu? Isn't Helseth a member of the house? and Neverar Indoril? can't say I wouldn't see some major conflict there in itself.

My game, Jiub was Neverar incarnate, and he traveled around telling stories and what not, and dancing in taverns, and everyone lived very happily ever after .

No doubt you can roleplay this fantasy in-game. It's certainly not something I'd do, knowing vaguely how much paperwork and stress is involved in running even just a single state government department. One could delegate, but then you'd just be a rich boffin on a throne. With a full suit of Daedric and a chest full of unique weapons, I could already settle down for life on the proceeds of adventuring.

Canonically the player character never disturbs power structures unless the main plot calls for it.


This is an awesome idea that should be made into a book and/or movie.

Helseth can be seen as similar to Peter the Great -- someone who grew up in precarious circumstances before taking the throne, and (as Ted Peterson has portrayed him) who has a murderous temper as his main Achilles heel.

I've read that Peter the Great was nearly killed by the boyars a time or two as a child, and he crushed them in return once he was established in power. Helseth similarly was unsure whether he would be allowed to live, and had to flee with his mother Barenziah. Peter the Great tried to modernize the Russians by force, as is Helseth with the Dunmer.

Allerleirauh once wrote that Helseth is the perfect ruler for the Dunmer; this was even included in the PGE 3rd. My character saw no point in trying to kill Helseth, nor Vivec for that matter. I played the Nerevarine with a certain amount of fatalism -- the downfall of the Tribunal and the success of Helseth could be seen as destined in the scheme of things.

I believe that just as Barenziah is more than the list of her youthful follies -- she was someone who had lived a life, and experienced everything from destitution to power -- that Helseth is more than a schemer and a suspected poisoner. They're both survivors.

Is Helseth really a bad apple for Morrowind?

We've got a nation of people who formed a culture where there is a constant civil war between the five Great Houses -- the problem is so bad that a form of legal assassination has been created so that the war could continue without causing too much troubles. We've got a nation that is in a deep religious crisis: their Satan, the Sharmat Dagoth Ur, was beginning to take over the land and it took all the Tribunal's efforts to contain him. And then this was solved by the providential intervention of the Nerevarine, but the Tribunal Temple's living gods died and disappeared. And to top it off, attacks by Nords started on the western border, and finally there was the Oblivion Crisis.

What Morrowind needs is a strong, pragmatic ruler to get the country out of the mess it is in. And Helseth fits the bill.

I'd have to agree; I think Helseth's position after the Oblivion Crisis is stronger than before, not weaker. The Redorans fought bravely against the Daedra but have been weakened, and the Indoril have been weakened by suicide and the Oblivion Crisis. Morrowind under Helseth is probably in better shape than Cyrodiil these days.

I've just got a few problems here, but you make a fair enough point.

The Great Houses have not been in civil war since the ascendancy of the Temple. The Temple, as we know stopped full civil war in Morrowind and brought the illusion of peace, but peace nonetheless under the Triunes. (Not only the Tribunal forbade civil war, but the Daedra too) All the conflict between the Houses has been trivial land grabs, petty slanderous squabblings and sabre rattling. The Dunmer, since the Chimeri days have always been a people of the knife, the heavily regulated and sanctioned Morag Tong assassinations are the tools to sate this subtle impulse.

Helseth comes to power and Morrowind really is plunged into civil war. Full civil war as Helseth engages a revolution against the people of Morrowind, backed by weakened imperial politics focused on the hope that the Dunmer will keep themselves busy whilst the imperials get their lazy asses back on their thrones.

Helseth clearly has no inkling of how dire the crisis of Dagoth Ur was. If he did, he would have known that helping Almalexia, not opposing her every move, would have been better for the people of Morrowind in the long term. As we're talking about Helseth as a bad apple for the people of Morrowind, not whether or not he's entitled to do so or whether he's simply a good chess player, which obviously, he is.

Also, he tried to kill the saviour of Morrowind. This stinks of pure machiavellian knivery, most akin to Telvanni dealings. Why? Just the same reason why the mad god Almalexia tried to kill him, to maintain the order of power, and that means imperial sponsored Hlaalu cliency.

Hypotheticaly, if he did succeed in killing the Nerevarine a few months earlier, he would probably would have doomed all of Tamriel.

That said, he didn't even have faith in his own culture's tradition enough to use the Morag Tong! He used the Dark Brotherhood, and y'know, those guys are just plain evil. Not to mention his vicious army of goblins, do you know how annoying those things were to kill?

He's an imperial, ears clipped like a man swit and reliant on nothing but the weakening foundations that raised him. Yes, Morrowind needs and strong and pragmatic ruler, but a Dunmeri ruler, one who is intimate with the dunmer nation and knows the hidden needs of the nation. What isn't needed is an imperial imposter who think he can impress the Dunmer with shows of malice and radicalism.

You could also make the case that Helseth found a province of squabbling tribes whose only value to the Empire was their natual resources of Ebony and Glass, and who were further isolated by their reliance on slavery. Rightly or wrongly, he's trying to modernize Morrowind despite the harm to her traditions.

Helseth wasn't trying to kill the Nerevarine, he was testing him or her to make sure they were the real article. The real Nerevarine would have little trouble disposing of the DB, which is probably true for everyone who played "Tribunal".