Why doesn't anybody continue developing Windom Earl's Crash : IV

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:17 pm

Well, is there?

» Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:37 am

Not many modders are going to come waltzing along with the skills of Windom Earl or Skyranger-1 or Elys or Ian Patt.

They are not falling out of the sky. If they were then I'm certain one would take this up.

The main issue I've seen with it is that it can mask finding the real cause of the crash. So while it might protect you in one instance it also reduces the tenacity you may have to resolve as many crashes as possible and then the same root cause may cause a crash in other areas.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:36 pm

A, that's why is not being developed

. I hope that someone skillful will eventually want to develop it further since for the casual player that doesn't know how to or want to search for the causes of random CTD's is veeery useful.

Thank you for the reply!

» Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:52 am

Well, is there?

No one's stopping you from picking up the task

. Goes for a lot of other tasks as well, mind you. My personal favorite is the 2xCyrodiil project that never took off. Could you do that once you're done with WECPS.....?

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:44 pm

Far more likely it's because the source code isn't available. Without that there's not a lot of point in trying.

Honestly though, that plugin isn't something I'd rely on in a serious game. Masking crashes is a bad idea. It leads to the very real possibility of data corruption and that's not something you want leaking into your saves. When programs crash they generally have a very good reason for it and you shouldn't be doing code dances to get around it.

» Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:50 am

No one's stopping you from picking up the task

. Goes for a lot of other tasks as well, mind you. My personal favorite is the 2xCyrodiil project that never took off. Could you do that once you're done with WECPS.....?

:lmao: I would if I would have the time, skill, and patience but I don't have either so I prefer to leave these tasks to people that enjoy doing them as much as I enjoy using them.

Far more likely it's because the source code isn't available. Without that there's not a lot of point in trying.

Honestly though, that plugin isn't something I'd rely on in a serious game. Masking crashes is a bad idea. It leads to the very real possibility of data corruption and that's not something you want leaking into your saves. When programs crash they generally have a very good reason for it and you shouldn't be doing code dances to get around it.

Oh good to know. Then I won't use it anymore. Thank you for the info!

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:31 pm

Actually, with WEOCPS my game has become more stable and I have 0 CTDs with very large number of mods (way over limit, with many merged plugins).
I haven't had 'corrupted save' or anything with it.

While without it, I've had corrupt saves, ctds etc.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:23 pm

Actually, with WEOCPS my game has become more stable and I have 0 CTDs with very large number of mods (way over limit, with many merged plugins).
I haven't had 'corrupted save' or anything with it.

While without it, I've had corrupt saves, ctds etc.

Same here. Been using it since it was released, and I've never had any corrupt saves. And my Oblivion crashes have been drastically reduced.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:30 pm

Actually, with WEOCPS my game has become more stable and I have 0 CTDs with very large number of mods (way over limit, with many merged plugins).
I haven't had 'corrupted save' or anything with it.

While without it, I've had corrupt saves, ctds etc.

Same here. Been using it since it was released, and I've never had any corrupt saves. And my Oblivion crashes have been drastically reduced.

Oh, so I will use it then, although I am a little confused. Thanks!

» Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:47 am

None of that is any guarantee it won't happen one day. Much like ignoring potholes you hit in the road won't necessarily bring your road trip to a halt either, but doing so long enough can eventually lead to the car ceasing to function. Even Windam himself said it shouldn't be relied upon in the way people are using it now. It was meant more as a means of getting past a persistent blockage to the game, not as a tourniquet to be permanently left in place.

» Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:33 am

I'm just saying that WEOCPS has done good for me. I have two active saves 154 and 185 hours of gameplay.

Before, I used to have some CTD which are gone now. Reasons for that CTDs could be various.

» Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:24 am

If that were true, in terms of probability (and counting how much I've played the game with weOCPS), my saves should've been completely corrupted and needed to be redone at least 2 or 3 times by now.

I think weOCPS is as reasonably secure to use as, let's say, nuclear energy. Yes, it's dangerous and can provoke a huge disaster, but it's too damn useful and relatively safe to just let it go.

» Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:25 am

and ... uhhh ... err - it just doesn't stop all crashes.

when it is installed and I'm experiencing crashing - it will stop maybe 30%.

It is no miracle cure. I smell placebo reports.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:56 pm

and ... uhhh ... err - it just doesn't stop all crashes.

Nothing is perfect.

I smell placebo reports.

My weocps.log doesn't say the same...

» Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:04 am

Well. I for one prefer the crashing, as long as I can work out what's causing them.
If not WECSP may be a good fix for overcoming that crash, as Arthmoor mentioned.

» Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:43 am

IT's not placebo for me.

Simple as that, I had crashes - now I don't.

I'm not an expert so I can't say what caused the crashes. Maybe could be hardware, low memory... who knows. Anyway, I'm happy with it.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:28 pm

Well, I wouldn't be playing Oblivion today if it wasn't for this plug in.

I'd get to many crashes and I'd have to little time to work out the cause.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:06 pm

What Psymon said is more or less true. It can only block what it's been specifically made to block. There's no guarantee that what it's blocking is safe to do that with.

The nuclear energy anology is close, but it's probably more accurate to think of it in terms of repeated radiation exposure. A few X-rays over the course of your lifetime probably won't harm you much. A whole lot of them, and it's cancer city.

A save with 154 and 184 hours on it probably hasn't been around long enough for the build up to be an issue.

Also keep in mind I'm seeing this from the perspective of one who has done some C/C++ development and the very thought of blocking a program crash generally makes developers cringe without some very good reasons for avoiding it.

» Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:22 am

What Psymon said is more or less true. It can only block what it's been specifically made to block. There's no guarantee that what it's blocking is safe to do that with.

The nuclear energy anology is close, but it's probably more accurate to think of it in terms of repeated radiation exposure. A few X-rays over the course of your lifetime probably won't harm you much. A whole lot of them, and it's cancer city.

A save with 154 and 184 hours on it probably hasn't been around long enough for the build up to be an issue.

Also keep in mind I'm seeing this from the perspective of one who has done some C/C++ development and the very thought of blocking a program crash generally makes developers cringe without some very good reasons for avoiding it.

Okay, it seems better to remove it then if it causes long term invisible problems, thanks!

So much back and forth... :lol:

» Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:58 am

A save with 154 and 184 hours on it probably hasn't been around long enough for the build up to be an issue.

If 184 hours is "not long enough", then what exactly is long enough? Twice of that? It seems to me 184 hours is already a vast amount of time.

Sorry but that is like saying that CD-R's/DVD-R's aren't a safe way to storage data just because they collapse after 10 years. At least it seems that to me.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:25 pm

Okay, it seems better to remove it then if it causes long term invisible problems, thanks!

Much better to at least try that first, then - *if* you have any crashes - try to figure out issues one by one, properly.

I use hundreds of mods, and a number of OBSE plugins (etc.) and don't get crashes. Hours and hours of play already (again). No need for WeOCPS.

Following instructions and guidelines, keeping up with updates and patches, learning to use various mod tools, and just plain using common sense and logic, together, should see you through.

That's my experience, anyway. And yes, I did try WeOCPS, quite some time ago. Not looking likely I'll ever go back to it.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:55 pm

A save with 154 and 184 hours on it probably hasn't been around long enough for the build up to be an issue.

OMG that's two weeks of my life spent playing Oblivion!!!

» Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:50 am

Yes, I also have about 200 mods installed, and I can play for hours with no CTD's, and I didn't use Windom Earl Crash Prevention System until now.

I also used it in the past, but in my recent install decided that its better not to use it anymore because I saw it wasn't maintained anymore.

This whole debate I started made me think it was a good idea to start to use it again and then not to use it at all as you can see in the previous posts.

» Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:45 am

Spoiler

Sat Jun 13 15:00:42 2009 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x00376cad (eip: 0x00776cad, sub_776C90). Link to 0x00000000 is faulty! eax=00000000 ebx=00000000 ecx=2e001300 edx=00000480 esi=2488c880 edi=00000000 esp=0012f3e0 ebp=2488cb60 Sat Jun 13 18:17:52 2009 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x00376cad (eip: 0x00776cad, sub_776C90). Link to 0x00000000 is faulty! eax=00000000 ebx=00000000 ecx=2e001300 edx=000001b0 esi=228cefa4 edi=00000000 esp=0012f3e0 ebp=228cf144 Sat Jul 04 14:05:20 2009 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x000dfa7f (eip: 0x004dfa7f, TESObjectREFR::DoPostFixup). Link to 0x00000004 is faulty! eax=00000000 ebx=19445b01 ecx=1a6410d8 edx=004d9b40 esi=1a6410d8 edi=0000a836 esp=0012f1dc ebp=1a64111c Sat Jul 04 14:05:23 2009 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x001e66b7 (eip: 0x005e66b7, sub_5E6680). NULL-pointer reference! eax=00000000 ebx=00000000 ecx=2f0aab58 edx=004d9b40 esi=2f0aab58 edi=00000000 esp=0012f1c4 ebp=00000002 Sat Jul 04 19:32:43 2009 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x000dfa7f (eip: 0x004dfa7f, TESObjectREFR::DoPostFixup). Link to 0x00000004 is faulty! eax=00000000 ebx=1ae38801 ecx=1a640afc edx=004d9b40 esi=1a640afc edi=0000a836 esp=0012f1dc ebp=1a640b40 Sat Jul 04 19:32:46 2009 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x001e66b7 (eip: 0x005e66b7, sub_5E6680). NULL-pointer reference! eax=00000000 ebx=00000000 ecx=2f0aab58 edx=004d9b40 esi=2f0aab58 edi=00000000 esp=0012f1c4 ebp=00000002 Mon Sep 07 19:24:49 2009 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x000dfa7f (eip: 0x004dfa7f, TESObjectREFR::DoPostFixup). Link to 0x00000004 is faulty! eax=00000000 ebx=00000001 ecx=1a642c64 edx=004d9b40 esi=1a642c64 edi=0000a836 esp=0012f1dc ebp=1a642ca8 Mon Sep 07 19:24:50 2009 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x001e66b7 (eip: 0x005e66b7, sub_5E6680). NULL-pointer reference! eax=00000000 ebx=00000000 ecx=2f0aaa50 edx=004d9b40 esi=2f0aaa50 edi=00000000 esp=0012f1c4 ebp=00000002 Mon Oct 05 22:23:35 2009 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x0025c640 (eip: 0x0065c640, sub_65C620). Link to 0x578bfad5 is faulty! eax=578bfad5 ebx=1a098401 ecx=24e92748 edx=40000008 esi=21602b2c edi=60e96410 esp=0012f714 ebp=60e96454 Fri Oct 16 21:58:01 2009 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x000c9a80 (eip: 0x004c9a80, sub_4C9A80). Invalid _this_ pointer: 0x00000000 (vtbl: 0xffffffff)! eax=2b0098c8 ebx=2b009958 ecx=00000000 edx=18aed384 esi=2b0098c8 edi=00000005 esp=0012f720 ebp=00000005 Fri Oct 16 23:39:23 2009 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x002ff9f0 (eip: 0x006ff9f0, sub_6FF9C0). Wrong _THIS_ pointer: 0x455d9000! eax=455d9000 ebx=455d9000 ecx=455d9000 edx=00000000 esi=455d9000 edi=07004dc8 esp=0012f7c0 ebp=7c80978a Sat Oct 17 00:28:20 2009 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x002b329a (eip: 0x006b329a, sub_6B3240). Link to 0x38355ffd is faulty (called from: 0x006b3b24)! eax=0000ff00 ebx=00000008 ecx=006b3b29 edx=07291d04 esi=38355ffc edi=12a12960 esp=0012efc4 ebp=00000008 Sat Oct 17 00:28:20 2009 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x002b329a (eip: 0x006b329a, sub_6B3240). Link to 0x38355ffe is faulty (called from: 0x006b3b24)! eax=0000ff00 ebx=00000008 ecx=006b3b29 edx=07291d04 esi=38355ffd edi=12a12960 esp=0012efc4 ebp=00000008 Sat Dec 12 20:31:50 2009 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x0008e7f4 (eip: 0x0048e7f4, sub_48E740). 0x0048E819. Link is faulty (0x00000014)! eax=226bcb90 ebx=00000000 ecx=226bcb90 edx=00000001 esi=20724d38 edi=160bc4b0 esp=0012f7b8 ebp=226bcbac Sat Dec 12 20:31:50 2009 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x0001e232 (eip: 0x0041e232, BaseExtraList::GetExtraData). Invalid _THIS_ pointer: 0x226bcb80 (vtbl: 0x226bcb70) eax=00000000 ebx=00000000 ecx=226bcb80 edx=00000001 esi=226bcb80 edi=160bc4b0 esp=0012f7a4 ebp=226bcbac Sat Dec 12 20:31:50 2009 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x0008e7f4 (eip: 0x0048e7f4, sub_48E740). 0x0048E811. Link is faulty (0x6abf12a3)! eax=6abf12a3 ebx=00000000 ecx=6abf12a3 edx=00000000 esi=1d5cdeb0 edi=00000000 esp=0012f7b8 ebp=20a52965 Sun Dec 13 01:51:16 2009 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x0008e7f4 (eip: 0x0048e7f4, sub_48E740). 0x0048E819. Link is faulty (0x00000014)! eax=27bec938 ebx=00000000 ecx=27bec938 edx=00000001 esi=22d321ac edi=160bc410 esp=0012f7b8 ebp=27bec954 Sun Dec 13 01:51:16 2009 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x0001e232 (eip: 0x0041e232, BaseExtraList::GetExtraData). Invalid _THIS_ pointer: 0x27bec928 (vtbl: 0x27bec918) eax=00000000 ebx=00000000 ecx=27bec928 edx=00000001 esi=27bec928 edi=160bc410 esp=0012f7a4 ebp=27bec954 Sun Dec 13 01:51:16 2009 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x0008e7f4 (eip: 0x0048e7f4, sub_48E740). 0x0048E811. Link is faulty (0xccc300b3)! eax=ccc300b3 ebx=00000000 ecx=ccc300b3 edx=00000000 esi=27bec928 edi=00000000 esp=0012f7b8 ebp=00a04b48 Mon Dec 14 00:41:36 2009 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x0008e7f4 (eip: 0x0048e7f4, sub_48E740). 0x0048E819. Link is faulty (0x0000003c)! eax=243ed7dc ebx=00000000 ecx=243ed7dc edx=00000001 esi=229bd7e4 edi=160bc640 esp=0012f7b8 ebp=243ed820 Mon Dec 14 00:41:36 2009 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x0001e232 (eip: 0x0041e232, BaseExtraList::GetExtraData). Invalid _THIS_ pointer: 0x243ed340 (vtbl: 0x243ecea4) eax=00000000 ebx=00000000 ecx=243ed340 edx=00000001 esi=243ed340 edi=160bc640 esp=0012f7a4 ebp=243ed820 Tue Dec 15 20:14:30 2009 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x0008e7f4 (eip: 0x0048e7f4, sub_48E740). 0x0048E819. Link is faulty (0x00000494)! eax=242f5e10 ebx=00000000 ecx=242f5e10 edx=00000001 esi=22740974 edi=170bec80 esp=0012f7b8 ebp=242f62ac Tue Dec 15 20:14:30 2009 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x0001e232 (eip: 0x0041e232, BaseExtraList::GetExtraData). Invalid _THIS_ pointer: 0x242f5974 (vtbl: 0x242f54d8) eax=00000000 ebx=00000000 ecx=242f5974 edx=00000001 esi=242f5974 edi=170bec80 esp=0012f7a4 ebp=242f62ac Tue Dec 15 20:14:53 2009 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x0008e7f4 (eip: 0x0048e7f4, sub_48E740). 0x0048E819. Link is faulty (0x00000008)! eax=2626a0c0 ebx=00000000 ecx=2626a0c0 edx=00000001 esi=237f7d1c edi=170bec80 esp=0012f7b8 ebp=2626a0d0 Tue Dec 15 20:14:53 2009 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x0001e232 (eip: 0x0041e232, BaseExtraList::GetExtraData). Invalid _THIS_ pointer: 0x2626a09c (vtbl: 0x26269ff4) eax=00000000 ebx=00000000 ecx=2626a09c edx=00000001 esi=2626a09c edi=170bec80 esp=0012f7a4 ebp=2626a0d0 Fri Dec 18 19:45:26 2009 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x002b329a (eip: 0x006b329a, sub_6B3240). Link to 0x3c13effd is faulty (called from: 0x006b3b24)! eax=0000ff00 ebx=00000008 ecx=006b3b29 edx=2568fe98 esi=3c13effc edi=14666410 esp=0012ecc8 ebp=00000008 Wed Jul 28 23:12:19 2010 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x000c9a80 (eip: 0x004c9a80, sub_4C9A80). Invalid _this_ pointer: 0x00000000 (vtbl: 0xffffffff)! eax=18101330 ebx=181013c0 ecx=00000000 edx=1820a840 esi=18101330 edi=00000005 esp=0012f720 ebp=00000005 Thu Jul 29 22:25:04 2010 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x001e66b7 (eip: 0x005e66b7, sub_5E6680). NULL-pointer reference! eax=00000000 ebx=00000000 ecx=300c7630 edx=004d9b40 esi=300c7630 edi=00000000 esp=0012f744 ebp=00000002 Thu Jul 29 22:41:22 2010 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x001e66b7 (eip: 0x005e66b7, sub_5E6680). NULL-pointer reference! eax=00000000 ebx=00000000 ecx=300c7630 edx=004d9b40 esi=300c7630 edi=00000000 esp=0012f744 ebp=00000002 Fri Jul 30 20:45:23 2010 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x001e66b7 (eip: 0x005e66b7, sub_5E6680). NULL-pointer reference! eax=00000000 ebx=00000000 ecx=300c7630 edx=004d9b40 esi=300c7630 edi=00000000 esp=0012f744 ebp=00000002 Fri Jul 30 20:49:24 2010 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x001e66b7 (eip: 0x005e66b7, sub_5E6680). NULL-pointer reference! eax=00000000 ebx=00000000 ecx=300c7630 edx=004d9b40 esi=300c7630 edi=00000000 esp=0012f744 ebp=00000002 Fri Jul 30 20:49:44 2010 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x0001e232 (eip: 0x0041e232, BaseExtraList::GetExtraData). Invalid _THIS_ pointer: 0x01040410 (vtbl: 0x00000000) eax=010403cc ebx=300aa210 ecx=01040410 edx=00b33800 esi=300aa210 edi=00263170 esp=0012f778 ebp=01040410 Sat Jul 31 14:04:48 2010 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x000c9a80 (eip: 0x004c9a80, sub_4C9A80). Invalid _this_ pointer: 0x00000000 (vtbl: 0xffffffff)! eax=2c009738 ebx=2c0097c8 ecx=00000000 edx=18e32fe4 esi=2c009738 edi=00000005 esp=0012f720 ebp=00000005 Sat Jul 31 15:20:31 2010 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x0001e232 (eip: 0x0041e232, BaseExtraList::GetExtraData). Invalid _THIS_ pointer: 0x06234d20 (vtbl: 0x00000021) eax=052215b0 ebx=1b6a7b00 ecx=06234d20 edx=06234d20 esi=06234d20 edi=1a9e7dec esp=0012f574 ebp=1965d0a4 Wed Aug 18 21:35:00 2010 OCPS build 2009-03-28 prevented crash at offset 0x00376cad (eip: 0x00776cad, sub_776C90). Link to 0x00000000 is faulty! eax=00000000 ebx=00000000 ecx=2f003d00 edx=00000630 esi=26264420 edi=00000000 esp=0012f3e0 ebp=22d375e4

Here's my log if anyone is interested. It's chinese to me.

» Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:21 am

No one's stopping you from picking up the task

. Goes for a lot of other tasks as well, mind you. My personal favorite is the 2xCyrodiil project that never took off. Could you do that once you're done with WECPS.....?

Oh, I so wanted to start working with 2xCyrodiil to make it usable, but I decided it was simply too vast a project to get involved with.

If 184 hours is "not long enough", then what exactly is long enough? Twice of that? It seems to me 184 hours is already a vast amount of time.

Sorry but that is like saying that CD-R's/DVD-R's aren't a safe way to storage data just because they collapse after 10 years. At least it seems that to me.

10 years for DVD-R discs? Pah. Try 1-3 years if I'm lucky (and with high quality discs). They're not a safe way to store data, so most data I backup onto DVD I also store on an external hard drive (which also may not be a safe way to store data as hard drives like to fail - that's why most data I backup onto external hard drive I also store on DVDs).

I wish I'd allowed myself time to have that many hours in an Oblivion game AS WELL as spending the time I do modding. But I chose to keep going to work each day instead