Why do I get bad karma for killing Mr. House? : Fallout: New Vegas

» Wed May 09, 2012 11:45 pm

Wow someone brought up Hitler. Didn't see that coming. What is it with people compairing anyone even remotely "bad" to Hitler and Nazis?

Godwin's Law never sleeps.

In what way is House better for Vegas?

He has a clear and forward-thinking vision that both exceeds anything other factions offer and is (given enough time) perfectly attainable under his guidance.

Why do people think House is going to turn into some sort of totalitarian dictator? He has no interest in legislating peoples lives or controlling them beyond the suppression of rebellion.

He has two rules essentially:

1. Don't screw with his economic interests.

2. Don't openly rebel or plot to overthrow him (hence the Omerta's). But he's perfectly fine with letting people insult him all they want. Which is why the Omerta's went on for as long as they did.

» Wed May 09, 2012 9:49 pm

I rather have the Reputation System. Karma is no longer needed.

I disagree. I enjoy the Karma system. I like to play the goody two-shoes, I like having my actions recognized. It wouldn't make sense if a positive rep with Junktown made me famous in the Hub, but it would make sense in terms of karma because my good deeds would have been heard of and spread by rumour of mouth.

» Wed May 09, 2012 11:27 am

I disagree. I enjoy the Karma system. I like to play the goody two-shoes, I like having my actions recognized. It wouldn't make sense if a positive rep with Junktown made me famous in the Hub, but it would make sense in terms of karma because my good deeds would have been heard of and spread by rumour of mouth.

But it doesn't work in well in New Vegas. Karma is a Universal force thing, and we have to rely in what a dev thinks is good and what is bad. Having someone know you are good or bad just by your Karma is stupid anyways. Can they read minds? Can they tap into the Universe and see my Karma. We have the reputation system and IMO its far better than the Karma.

Fallout 3 was completely broken, just having Karma alone.

» Thu May 10, 2012 12:27 am

But it doesn't work in well in New Vegas. Karma is a Universal force thing, and we have to rely in what a dev thinks is good and what is bad. Having someone know you are good or bad just by your Karma is stupid anyways. Can they read minds? Can they tap into the Universe and see my Karma. We have the reputation system and IMO its far better than the Karma.

I sort of agree with this. Do we really need a god-system which tells us whether or not the actions we do are wrong?

» Wed May 09, 2012 11:03 pm

You forget that the three families were savage tribesmen before Mr. House got them on his side, now they are all rich business men making thousands of Caps a day, if the entire Mojave were on his side, they, like the three families would prosper too. Mr. House could probably make Freeside and westside prosper too but the arrival of the NCR and the legion have limited his sphere of influence to the strip, if he tried to get them on his side then the NCR and legion might see it as a threat and take him out early.

and if Mr. House really is so bad at running things then how did he create the largest robotics/computer corporation in probably the entire world even after he was cheated out of inheritance? If he was so bad then how did he save Vegas? If he was so bad how did he manage to recruit the three families when they were previously aggressive tribes people? If he was so bad how did he manage to kick the Great Khans (a large tough tribe that can terrorize the NCR) from the strip with a handful of Mk I securitrons and some tribesmen? If Mr. House is really so bad at running things then how did he do all this?

Neither house or his securitrons can run the casinos so he obviously needed a group of people who were capable of doing it. He did make savages rich but he didn't do it for the greater good. He was thinking what was best for Vegas not "how can I save these tribes from the violent wasteland".Previously aggressive tribes? Lets see,The Omertas want to take over the strip&they cover up murders,The White Glove wants to bring back cannibalism, Benny wants to take over the strip and even Mr. house says the chairman share a "tribal affinity" so if Benny did take over I bet they would support him. They all are still savages. But let's say Mr. house is the best choice for the Mojave. Do you really think people should live under his rule forever? Even if his rule is good should one have power for eternity?

Having good or bad Karma for killing someone doesn't make the game "Good" vs "Evil." I agree with you that Karma was not needed for New Vegas. I disagree that Karma was done better in Fallout 3. In Fallout Karma acts as the games "reputation system." So this is where Karma worked the best. Fallout 2 was when the reputation system came in, but Karma still worked really well with it. Fallout 3 just had Karma, but Karma didn't affect how the game world saw you. It was completely pointless. New Vegas has the Reputation System which governs how the game world sees you. Karma took a backseat. I rather have the Reputation System. Karma is no longer needed.

Fallout 3s did affect how the world reacted to you.
-Companions wouldn't follow you if you weren't like them.
-Three dog mentions your actions, right or wrong.
-Talon and regulators.
-Unique Dialogue (ex.I remember a kid telling me they shouldn't talk to me because I'm a bad person)
-The ending

I think it could've been more to it than just that but this was their first fallout title and they were simply experimenting on new things. The reputation system is nice but why not have both? I don't think the two would really conflict each other and both seem to have benefits and consequences.

» Wed May 09, 2012 5:56 pm

But it doesn't work in well in New Vegas. Karma is a Universal force thing, and we have to rely in what a dev thinks is good and what is bad. Having someone know you are good or bad just by your Karma is stupid anyways. Can they read minds? Can they tap into the Universe and see my Karma. We have the reputation system and IMO its far better than the Karma.

Fallout 3 was completely broken, just having Karma alone.

It does work well when used properly, I question killing Generic Fiend as good because you don't actively go out of your way to hunt them down and start the fight, they are initially hostile. While I do believe killing feral ghouls is an act of mercy, I don't really think it's needed to hand karma out of a goodie bag. Also, by your logic, how does Ulysses know your rep with the various factions if he's been in the Divide since the beginning of the game? The reputation system is stupid anyways.

Sounds silly doesnt it? But it adds flavour to the series is all, like in endslides, if you help House with good karma, you help ensure the stability of Vegas for future generations, if it was an evil character, I doubt they'd be willing to be so kind hearted. I think Karma can help diversify the game. Karma's implementation isn't bad, it's the way Devs use it. :shrug:

Edit @ Vats- House isn't in stasis, he's in a life support system. He has another 100-200 years maybe before his time runs out. Long lived? Yes, Immortal? No.

» Wed May 09, 2012 9:42 pm

Fallout 3s did affect how the world reacted to you.
-Companions wouldn't follow you if you weren't like them.
-Three dog mentions your actions, right or wrong.
-Talon and regulators.
-Unique Dialogue (ex.I remember a kid telling me they shouldn't talk to me because I'm a bad person)
-The ending

Ok let me be clearer. Karma in Fallout 3 was stupid because it was based on "Magic" and it was "Good vs Evil"

Talon Company and the Regulatory, very stupid. "You're good/bad so I am going to kill you." Yet why doesn't anyone else besides them know about it? How is it I can kill people in Megaton and them comeback three days later and things are fine. How is it I can blow up Megaton and then go to Rivet City and those people aren't worried I will hurt them. Three Dog on the Radio telling people I blew up Megaton and the guards of Rivet City "you better not cause any trouble." I just blew up a city you stupid [censored]!

Some companions, Three Dog and endings (that were crap and removed anyways) is a very broken Karma System.

» Wed May 09, 2012 3:11 pm

Ok let me be clearer. Karma in Fallout 3 was stupid because it was based on "Magic" and it was "Good vs Evil"

Talon Company and the Regulatory, very stupid. "You're good/bad so I am going to kill you." Yet why doesn't anyone else besides them know about it? How is it I can kill people in Megaton and them comeback three days later and things are fine. How is it I can blow up Megaton and then go to Rivet City and those people aren't worried I will hurt them. Three Dog on the Radio telling people I blew up Megaton and the guards of Rivet City "you better not cause any trouble." I just blew up a city you stupid [censored]!

Some companions, Three Dog and endings (that were crap and removed anyways) is a very broken Karma System.

The reputation system does have it flaws as well. You mean to tell me if I kill the ncr at every outpost they own in the game I can be forgiven by getting the boomers to support them in the war? I killed hundreds of troops but you forgive me and trust me enough to do work for you. It would be better if they didn't forgive you and let you live with the consequences.

» Wed May 09, 2012 3:28 pm

It would be better if they didn't forgive you and let you live with the consequences.

Wat. Why would they let a guy who killed off multiple outposts live just in hopes that he 'feels very naughty and thinks about what he did'? >_>

» Wed May 09, 2012 10:55 am

The reputation system does have it flaws as well. You mean to tell me if I kill the ncr at every outpost they own in the game I can be forgiven by getting the boomers to support them in the war? I killed hundreds of troops but you forgive me and trust me enough to do work for you. It would be better if they didn't forgive you and let you live with the consequences.

It isn't as big as how bad it is in Fallout 3. If you go around killing NCR why would you side with them in the end anyways? Its also shows how much each side wants to control the Mojave. That they are willing to forgive you for your horrible crimes. At least they know of your crimes. Not like Fallout 3 where everyone has their head up their own ass.

If you look at Fallout which only has a Karma system which worked great. Then look at Fallout 3 which only had a Karma system which is total crap. It is severly flawed and to say "well Reputation System has its bugs" doesn't make Fallout 3 system good.

Also why did you quote me so many times?

» Wed May 09, 2012 7:13 pm

If you look at Fallout which only has a Karma system which worked great. Then look at Fallout 3 which only had a Karma system which is total crap. It is severly flawed and to say "well Reputation System has its bugs" doesn't make Fallout 3 system good.

But it's not the Karma System that's inherently flawed, it's the implementation by Bethesda. It's claimed Tenpenny hired the mercenaries to kill you if you have good karma, but ingame, there's no other excuse than 'Look player, just roll with what we put in the game :/ '

Karma system is fun in general when it provides unique endings or dialogue, but it should be contained to a small corner of the game same as any other unique character building.

» Wed May 09, 2012 2:30 pm

Neither house or his securitrons can run the casinos so he obviously needed a group of people who were capable of doing it. He did make savages rich but he didn't do it for the greater good. He was thinking what was best for Vegas not "how can I save these tribes from the violent wasteland".Previously aggressive tribes? Lets see,The Omertas want to take over the strip&they cover up murders,The White Glove wants to bring back cannibalism, Benny wants to take over the strip and even Mr. house says the chairman share a "tribal affinity" so if Benny did take over I bet they would support him. They all are still savages. But let's say Mr. house is the best choice for the Mojave. Do you really think people should live under his rule forever? Even if his rule is good should one have power for eternity?

You confuse the actions of the few with the actions of the majority, only Benny wants to replace House, Swank calls him crazy for wanting to do it and tells you that they are better people because of House (ie not murdering everyone they see). only Mortimer and a few others want to go back to cannibalism, Marjorie and the majority do not and say that it is a disgusting thing and Mr. House saved them and that they are also better people because of House (ie not eating everyone they see). as for the Omerta's well they are pretty bad and i would rather have the kings running a casino than them. also i doubt House will live forever, i'd give him 300 years max, he has advanced technology not the infinite power of the cosmos.

One last thing, Mr. House says that he and the chairmen share a tribal affinity not that the chairmen share a tribal affinity.

I feel that the Karma system isn't that great in New Vegas because every action can be perceived as the right thing

» Wed May 09, 2012 3:29 pm

But it's not the Karma System that's inherently flawed, it's the implementation by Bethesda. It's claimed Tenpenny hired the mercenaries to kill you if you have good karma, but ingame, there's no other excuse than 'Look player, just roll with what we put in the game :/ '

Karma system is fun in general when it provides unique endings or dialogue, but it should be contained to a small corner of the game same as any other unique character building.

Yeah but Bethesda screwed it up and Obsidian couldn't make it work that well. That's why we keep getting these "why did I get bad karma for this?!" When we have the Reputation System, it makes the Karma system obsolete. Bethesda has shown they can't pull it off and New Vegas has show how obsolete it really is.

Karma is something the Universe, the gods decide. How are devs supposed to judge what is good and what is bad in a game as large and complicated as Fallout? Do we need that? Do we need devs playing God telling us what is good and what is bad, and in the end there is no real reason to have it when we have the Reputation system. Having companions magically know your karma is stupid imo. Having anyone magically able to tell your karma is stupid. Unless they can read minds or talk to the gods.

» Wed May 09, 2012 9:33 pm

Yeah but Bethesda screwed it up and Obsidian couldn't make it work that well. That's why we keep getting these "why did I get bad karma for this?!" When we have the Reputation System, it makes the Karma system obsolete. Bethesda has shown they can't pull it off and New Vegas has show how obsolete it really is.

Karma is something the Universe, the gods decide. How are devs supposed to judge what is good and what is bad in a game as large and complicated as Fallout? Do we need that? Do we need devs playing God telling us what is good and what is bad, and in the end there is no real reason to have it when we have the Reputation system. Having companions magically know your karma is stupid imo. Having anyone magically able to tell your karma is stupid. Unless they can read minds or talk to the gods.

That's a rather simpleton attitude. Karma is just general umbrella term in the series to describe your moral actions. Take Vault City, you have the wife asking you to free her husband, you can make her pay you, or you can demand her to pay in six. The latter showing your, or your characters, morality in cases such as this. I see Karma as the netting tallying of your actions in the world. If you're 'good' then chances are you're doing good deeds unto others and righting wrongs in the world, Et Cetera. Point is, you're looking at this way to literally.

» Wed May 09, 2012 10:04 pm

That's a rather simpleton attitude. Karma is just general umbrella term in the series to describe your moral actions. Take Vault City, you have the wife asking you to free her husband, you can make her pay you, or you can demand her to pay in six. The latter showing your, or your characters, morality in cases such as this. I see Karma as the netting tallying of your actions in the world. If you're 'good' then chances are you're doing good deeds unto others and righting wrongs in the world, Et Cetera. Point is, you're looking at this way to literally.

Thats reputation not Karma. Karma in Fallout was pretty much the Reputation System, just not called Reputation System. You are doing something that she can then go "he made me have six with him" or "He did it for free" and through word of mouth your reputation will spread.

To have someone say "Well you stole a bunch of junk from a dead guys house, so you're bad and I will have nothing to do with you." That's stupid.

» Wed May 09, 2012 6:38 pm

How is new vegas not safe?

He makes it orderly, efficient and air conditioned

Also you know, he's a 200 year old man unmatched in the fields of computing, medical science, robotics, nuke-destroying-lasers/missiles and humanity-saving with a massive army of robots with machine guns, lasers, grenade launchers and missiles, so you know, he might bring a few things to the table

Yes he keeps like 4-6 buildings safe. OMG HE IS OUR SAVIOR!!!

Caesars Legion? No. NCR? Maybe. I see NCR as helpful to the broader Wasteland, House is better for Vegas, so why not help House? It's the best of both worlds.

Caesar can keep the wasteland safe. House doesn't give a [censored] except for 4-6 building. The strip isn't even all that nice. You think he would buy some concrete to fix the streets or something and thos loading screen are annoying as hell.

» Wed May 09, 2012 7:28 pm

Yes he keeps like 4-6 buildings safe. OMG HE IS OUR SAVIOR!!!

Caesar can keep the wasteland safe. House doesn't give a [censored] except for 4-6 building. The strip isn't even all that nice. You think he would buy some concrete to fix the streets or something and thos loading screen are annoying as hell.

The developers only put a handful of buildings on the Strip because that's all they could fit.

Look how big it was in the developers imaginations (and most likely lore)--->http://beefjack.com/files/2010/11/concept-art-14.jpg

And House can't control a game's loading screens. You're just running out of arguements at this point.

» Wed May 09, 2012 12:10 pm

House saved the Mojave in the first place. There would be nothing for the Legion or NCR to fight over if it wasn't for him. Mr.House has a very large army of Robots, but he needs us to get it. So if we help him he can keep the whole Mojave safe. Mr.House rebuilt the Strip which let others build around it. He cleared out Hoover Dam for NCR. He is the economic engine of the Mojave.

» Wed May 09, 2012 7:43 pm

Wat. Why would they let a guy who killed off multiple outposts live just in hopes that he 'feels very naughty and thinks about what he did'? >_>

I wasn't saying that they shouldn't do anything about the crimes you committed, I was saying it was silly for them to forgive you regardless of what you did.Obsidian tried to give players a second chance to work for factions but it breaks immersion on how a whole group hates me for killing nearly all of their troops and then suddenly forgive you.Oh and If they didn't forgive you they wouldn't just hope you have a mental breakdown they would shoot you on sight. That's not how in works in real life, If I sell drugs and get caught I might be able to snitch on other dealers to lighten my sentence but if I slaughter a whole police station they won't give me the option to work for them. They'll execute me.

Its also shows how much each side wants to control the Mojave. That they are willing to forgive you for your horrible crimes. At least they know of your crimes. Not like Fallout 3 where everyone has their head up their own ass.
-Snip-
If you look at Fallout which only has a Karma system which worked great. Then look at Fallout 3 which only had a Karma system which is total crap. It is severly flawed and to say "well Reputation System has its bugs" doesn't make Fallout 3 system good.
This is a good point. When your desperate for something you start to do things you would never thought you'd do. I also agree that fallout 3s system wasn't perfect and it was ridiculous for people to forget about your crimes in three days but as I just said...it seems the devs focused too much on second chances instead of reality. That goes for both games.
Also why did you quote me so many times?
Sorry, my mouse is clicking 6 times a click for some reason.

You confuse the actions of the few with the actions of the majority, only Benny wants to replace House, Swank calls him crazy for wanting to do it and tells you that they are better people because of House (ie not murdering everyone they see). only Mortimer and a few others want to go back to cannibalism, Marjorie and the majority do not and say that it is a disgusting thing and Mr. House saved them and that they are also better people because of House (ie not eating everyone they see). as for the Omerta's well they are pretty bad and i would rather have the kings running a casino than them. also i doubt House will live forever, i'd give him 300 years max, he has advanced technology not the infinite power of the cosmos.

One last thing, Mr. House says that he and the chairmen share a tribal affinity not that the chairmen share a tribal affinity.

I feel that the Karma system isn't that great in New Vegas because every action can be perceived as the right thing

Swank is probably the only one in the chairman that would be on Mr. Houses side but that's debatable. After you help the white glove Mortimer says when he told everyone what the meal was they all got quiet and then started laughing. You can even go back and talk to Majorie and she'll thank you for bringing back cannibalism. The only one who doesn't really care for it is chauncey. I agree with your karma statement.

Okay, you guys have convinced me that Mr.House might be the best choice for the mojave but I still don't believe that he or any of the other factions are a good choice. Hell, I don't even think yesmans a good choice and I picked him my first playthrough.

The karma and reputation system comes down to a matter of opinion and we will just have to wait and see what direction the two go in Fallout 4.

Edit:@styles companions didn't magically know your karma, they always said "I heard about you". Seeing how three dog mentions your actions I can see how this is a possibility.

» Wed May 09, 2012 12:50 pm

I wonder if we get bad karma for killing Caesar... He did after all civilize Arizona, Utah, Colorado and New Mexico under one nation.

You get good Karma for killing any member of the Legion.

» Thu May 10, 2012 1:51 am

This whole topic makes me regret blowing his brains out. I never liked him purely becuase of his self-interest, but I never thought about the actual result of his actions.

» Wed May 09, 2012 11:17 pm

Edit:@styles companions didn't magically know your karma, they always said "I heard about you". Seeing how three dog mentions your actions I can see how this is a possibility.

Which bags the question. If they knew about you? Then why didn't anyone else know about you? Seriously how stupid is that?

» Wed May 09, 2012 8:31 pm

NCR: Crony Mercantilism; government backed handful of firms .
House: Fascistic Oligopoly; government-centric dependent controlled handful of permitted firms.
YesMan: Lawless Primitivist Anarcho-Capitalism; too much of a very good thing without the dash that is helpful, at the least helpful time for it.
Caesar: Integralist Dictatorship

Best Outcome:
Caesar in the following very immediate short run, NCR the short to medium run, house in the medium run, yesman in the very long run.

» Thu May 10, 2012 2:05 am

@Styles Maybe their intelligence was 1. joking.Your right besides companions and that guy at paradise falls nobody seems to know about me. That could've been explained in writing but Bethesda chose not to explain it. I don't get it. Either we get an amazing world to explore with a crap story or we get a world with an amazing story but crap world to explore. We just can't have both. I blame the xbox because of the hardware limitations it struggles with.

» Wed May 09, 2012 11:15 pm

@Styles Maybe their intelligence was 1. joking.Your right besides companions and that guy at paradise falls nobody seems to know about me. That could've been explained in writing but Bethesda chose not to explain it. I don't get it. Either we get an amazing world to explore with a crap story or we get a world with an amazing story but crap world to explore. We just can't have both. I blame the xbox because of the hardware limitations it struggles with.

I think New Vegas has a great world to explore. Exploration isn't what Fallout is about anyways. It wasn't meant to be a game based on "heres a crap load of dungeons guarded by the same generic bad guys, go explore."