As far as the duel between Ulfric and Torygg went, it wasn't fair. Fair would be fists against fists or swords against swords. What Ulfric did, was to bring a gun to a fist fight. It's cowardly. Not to mention, as Torygg's wife mentions, if Ulfric had asked for support, he would very likely have gotten it.
And the Thalmor and the Empire? The Empire didn't do much about enforcing the Talos ban until Ulfric started to [censored] and moan about it, then the Thalmor heard it and came by to see what was going on. The Empire didn't mind Talos worship, as long as it was discreet to not attract any attention. By getting so vocal, Ulfric got the Thalmor's attention.

Ulfric is a [censored] disaster. He should have spent more time thinking before speaking.

There is no rule that specifically forbids magic use in a duel. therefore, it was fair.

I didn't choose a side yet, but If I was going to, it would be the Stormcloaks. True, Ulfric is hasty and racist, but the Imperials and the Thalmor aren't much better, and at least Ulfric fights for his people. Plus the Empire is looking very much like it's on it's last leg, and they tried to cut off mine and everyone else's heads just for entering Skyrim.

I just wanted to join the College of Winterhold! IS THAT SO BAD!?!?!?

There is, therefore it was not fair. Which is kinda funny, since Ulfric always brags about honour, Nord traditions and such but still resorts to coward's way in the very same traditional Nord duel
(despite having the upper hand or so I've heard).

Like Sadist King said: He should think before opening his mouth. :biggrin:

I'll never support Ulfric on that fight, but even he said it had nothing to do with being High King. It was suppose to be symbol, killing the newer guy with old tradition (The Thu'um). You know what I mean? Like "We've lost our traditions".

Personally, I think if every Nord is able to shout, then they should learn the Thu'um. It was made available to the High King, why not learn it? Maybe he'd still be alive

Every one (including non-Nords in theory) is able to learn how to shout, but not everyone can/will because it's the greybeards' call. There's no college of shouting (unless you consider the bards and their earsplitting music) in Skyrim, it's a religious tradition that comes with sacrifices and conditions. Ulfirc was instructed by the greybeards then violated his oaths.

They are, but it requires years of practice and perfection, which in the middle of a civil war along with dragons raging on and a great foe like the Aldmeri Domion pushing, years just simply aren't any option.

But Ulfric learned it. If he was able to learn it, and I don't even think he's a master at it, then the High King surely had enough time. It should have been required as a defence. Thats poor judgment on his, his people, and the Imperials part

He might not be a master at it, but he spent time training how to use it, at the very least, "properly" prior to the events of the game. For all we know, he could've spent three years prior to the events of the game learning the Way of the Voice. Or maybe more.

Then the High King surely could've as well.

The Greybeards decide who gets to be trained. My guess would be that Torygg either never asked for training or wasn't allowed the training.

I disagree. The Thalmor dossiers say it- what they want is a prolonged conflict, not a quick Stormcloak victory. Ulfric has to strike fast and hard to consolidate power at home. That's the only way you get footing to wage an external campaign. Not sitting idly by while the Imperials are letting Thalmor spy on your territory and act as their agents.

The fact that people say Torygg would have acted if Ulfric had asked him to just underscores why Torygg was a disaster. He was a figurehead, not a leader. Why should a king dither around waiting for a jarl to tell him what to do? Ulfric was going to have to depose Torygg one way or another.

I'm pretty sure it's made available to all Nords. It even says that on the loading screen. It's just no one does it

And I'll just follow my guts and say no. Hehe, but seriously, I am pretty sure the Greybeards call the shots since the Way of the Voice is more than just knowing how to shout, as it is a lifestyle as well. Torygg, being High King, might not have been the right person for such a lifestyle.

That's my guess anyway, until I'm proven wrong.

Uh... what? The Nords were fighting with the Empire, they saved the Imperial City, and the Empire rewarded them by giving the Thalmor nearly everything the slimy bastards wanted in the first place.

People who say that Skyrim can't take on the Thalmor alone are missing the point. The idea is that Skyrim should be able to rule itself, and can best organize a defense when it's free of the Concordat's yoke. If Cyrodiil wants Nord troops to defend its territory, it can ask for them as an independent nation asks another. Not demand them "or else."


No, that is not all he would have to do. He would then have to follow the orders of a feckless king who was allowing himself to be an Imperial (and hence, Thalmor) puppet, who had only given lukewarm support to independence, not enough to overrule the other jarls like Balgruuf who are hell-bent on Skyrim staying in the Empire. Torygg was an empty suit. Probably a nice guy, but useless as a king, and therefore dangerous in a time of war and unrest.

It's in Ulfric's dialogue. He says that any Nord can request training, but the thu'um takes discipline and will to learn, and Torygg had neither- which was the point.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up.

I wish I had a pc so I could take a screenshot. If they made it available to Ulfric, they would make it available to the High King

As Celan pointed out, you're right. But still, how many Nords can the Greybeards teach at once anyway? They are four individuals. And how many of those Nords are capable of even learning how to Shout? And even then, why would the Greybeards teach how to Shout as a weapon?

If my memory serves me right, the only reason the Greybeards "allow" you, the Dragonborn, to use the Shout actively as a weapon is because they suspect you of being just that, Dragonborn. But the Way of the Voice is otherwise largely, if not more or less entirely, a pacifistic lifestyle.

He's the KING. They would make an exception. It's not like he's a beggar. If someone important wanted to learn the Thu'um and he was that important, he'd be front in line. I'm sure they wouldn't think Ulfric was more important than him.

He could've learned it. He didn't for the same reason no one else did. They thought the Greybeards were lazy bums who criticized people all the time.

Perhaps Ulfric had the wrong shout readied?

Just today I was going to test a passive shout, but accidentally shouted the wrong words and killed a merchant outright. :whistling:

I do, but the fact remains that Skyrim can function as an independent nation and at this stage, they are losing more than they gain by staying in.

Ulfric reminds me somewhat of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminius, who was trained by the Romans and served in their army, but turned on them and won a decisive victory at Teutoburger Forest. Even though they struck back at him a few times, the Romans never again held territory east of the Rhine. It's because of that rebellion that there is such a thing as a "German" culture, whereas other Germanic tribes like the Franks, Normans and Goths were Latinized or simply absorbed into the empire and ceased to exist as a people. The Germans still had a lot of dealings with Rome, traded with them, they ended up taking over Roman concepts of law wholesale, but they preserved their traditions and unlike some warned, didn't fall to the Huns or Turks, either.

The Empire is disgustingly like the Romans in that they think anyone who is not licking their boots is "barbarian" and can't even wipe their behinds without an Imperial to guide them. That simply isn't the case, and it should be pretty evident in the result of the Great War. The great Romans had their city sacked by "barbarians" a few times over, too. In Tamriel, if this sorry Empire is the only hope, then you might as well welcome your Thalmor overlords with open arms.

Did you read Celan's last post, where it's pointed out that Torygg was unable to learn? But as mentioned, that came from Ulfric. It might be biased, though, who knows, maybe it isn't.

But the fact remains, as far as the duel went, Torygg couldn't shout and Ulfric could and did.

What my last reply was about, was how you commented that Nords in general could just learn how to shout, which I stated... the short version being, very hard to pull off.

Ulfric Is a idiot I Hate him...By this stupidity he is spitting On Talos...Fool

Not to mention HE IS A FRICKEN THALMOR SLEEPER AGENT

I think we're missing something with the duel, and that's the fact that let's you and me fight to be boss is an absolutely awful system of governance. Firstly, because being a better warrior in no way guarantees the ability to taxation, trade, diplomacy, justice or any of the other mundane aspects of rulership. Secondly, it's a perfect recipe for dynastic feuds and near permanent civil war, because we were kings, then they killed our dude, so we killed his dude, so he killed our dude, so let's just burn their hold now.

Ulfric is a$$hole. Why Charlie hate?

Because Ulfric is a bastardt man!

This excerpt from Always Sunny sums up my opinion of Ulfric. He's just not a nice guy.