All the draugr overlords can shout. The "heroes" in the main quest can all use the thu'um. Apparently this was a fairly common thing among the Nords at one time, and no doubt that is also what Ulfric meant to demonstrate- that the current Nord leadership is weak, that it depends on the empire rather than standing on its own feet. Sure, Ulfric could have proven the same point using swords only, but he got greater attention and people fear him more because of his thu'um. You notice that his mouth is bound when they're executing him.

I hesitate to use The 13th Warrior as an example but... you know the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp1mzx5O4ao? Ulfric Buliwyf purposefully sets the duel up so that the guy would lose, in order to prove a point. They don't hate that guy, they honor him, but his death was a necessary sacrifice. All very Viking. The thing is, when you're faced with a threat, it is a matter of life and death that you have a strong leader and minions who have confidence in him and will do what they're told. This is why the Germanic kings were chosen by the people, on the basis of prowess in battle and not (usually) because of who their father was. The survival of your people depends on this.

Is there any other way to govern? The one with the armies wins. Yes, you need good systems of governance and diplomacy and bureaucracy, too, but you can't get those unless someone's got big guns and the will to use them. The Roman Empire wasn't built in a day. Latium spent decades pummeling its neighbors and robbing them until they had enough control over the Italian peninsula, and then the Mediterranean, that they could go on merrily absorbing territory.

The risk is that you have too many people around who think they're strong (e.g. the sons of Alexander the Great). That's exactly why Ulfric's thu'um during the duel was necessary. If he had just beaten Torygg at swordplay, every Nord swilling mead in the taverns would think he could have done it. The fact that he has a power others don't (even if because of their own laziness) is exactly why he stands a better chance at leading Skyrim than that waste of space Elisif.

I do agree that Ulfric does not appear to be a good politician. I won't support him as gladly with a character who doesn't want to be his right hand and take care of that end of things for him.

But We all know that Excuse of a Jarl is being used as a puppet by A very Badass General!(Which is a good thing)

This is the point I was trying to make. I'm no good with words.

Whenever I try to explain something, I'm calling on you next time



I missed that. At what point?

I'm so good at paying attention

Wooooah there tiger

Read That Fricken dossier In That FRICKEN Embassy...

For all you who havant read it here.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak

Oh And to increase the mood listen to this and skip to 00:27
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tVTEyuCKn4&feature=related

Still getting a bit emotional here, Boss.
While I also dislike Ulfric (and will gladly behead him myself in the next playthrough) I see no reason to throw a hissy fit. Over a video game no less. :wink_smile:

Daaaamn, it's NCR vs Legion, Mages vs Templars and Blue Stripes vs Scoia'Tael all over again. :flamethrower:

Yah Your probally right....

Oh and yah I hated roach Who did you support?

I'm not suggesting, even momentarily, that nations are let's hold hands and sing kumbaya'd into being, or held together by gumdrops and rainbows. Nations are unified force, and in turn, are unified by force. I'm saying that a system of governance which actively encourages its nobility to slaughter each other for self-advancement is self-destructive. Alvor even notes this, should you follow Hadvar out of Helgen - that once the Jarls start killing each other, Skyrim has returned to "the bad old days."

That Ulfric can Shout says nothing of his ability to rule, and is in no way whatsoever a better claim to the throne than Torygg's, or even Elisif's. If kingship were a series of duels, then sure, the Voice was be very useful for cheating his way through them. Torygg's strength seems to have been recognising the skills in others, hence his very capable court in Solitude, which appears to be a very well governed city. Elisif has inherited this court, is willing to listen, and shows great empathy towards her people. I'd rather a High Queen Elisif, backed by the Empire and surrounded by capable advisers, than High King Ulfric.

Well, I followed Vernon Roche
I mean.... I didn't see much reason for joining Iorweth, since Roche has been with and supported me from the beginning.

But that's a bit too much Off-Topic I guess, so I'll stop it here.

I see that all the time, and frankly it could be taken both ways

This Document actually makes me sad...I wonder what his men would think If they found out he broke to the Thalmor....

Show me. And give me your source.

Like I said, you can take it different ways. You can take it as he's a thalmor agent, or 'break' as in they gained information out of him, rather than joining their side. Personally, I think he broke, told them, and of course felt bad. I think thats the hatred for the elves, plus the talos thing, and the resentment for the Imperials for looking like they backed down (not saying they did).

If I reckon correctly, the NPCs around the Jarl of Solitude will talk about it and look down upon it from the whole honourable etc. standpoint. That's probably why most people are saying that he "murdered the High King", instead of besting him or such.

BUT

There are also people who will just shrug it off and say that the King was too weak and it was justified.
So it's more of a double edged sword here with the lack of information and I could ask you the same if it was actually allowed. :shrug:

But I admit that I mostly assume it is within the confines of the real word fencing duels which pretty much denies the usage of anything else other than the said weapons.

Exactly. Differences of culture, maybe?

"Understanding Is a three edged Sword, Your truth, There truth, And the truth"

I was picking up the same vibe when I went to Solitude, but if the high King was weak willed (and I'm not saying he was), then he deserved to at least be kicked off the throne. Killing him was unnecessary, unless the rules dictate that he had to die in order for the crown to be passed on, so to speak.

But anywho, I've voiced my opinion on this.

You meet him latter in sovengurd...He says while facing ulfric and his death there was no fear in his heart....

I was wondering where he was!!

and that doent mean he isnt weak-willed

He earned the love of all of solitude(Except that terrieble guard) That says something about him...

He doesn't seem to be a very good day to day leader outside of war.

Just look at the state of his city, what a mess.

Then Ulfric should have talked it out. Nevertheless, what's done is done.



Actually, you have to have a VERY strong will to face death and not be afraid.



Yes, it's a mess because it's king was brutally killed, not necessarily because he was a crappy ruler. Like Bigbossbalrog said, that fact that all of the civilians loved him says something positive about his leadership. Propaganda alone can't earn the hearts of the common-folk.

Here is a better title for the thread.
Why hate any character in any game period?

Characters are nothing more than tools or devices that I use to get what I want. They are all expendable and I.exchangeable to me. Simply put, I don't give a [censored] about any of them.

Ulfric.....I dont hate the guy. He just smells like Chinese and old diapers.