Both of those points bothered me as well

I think there are good reasons to support either faction. I obviously have my pick and I'm kind of constitutionally unable to support the Romans. However, just as people say that this isn't the time for Skyrim to declare independence, I would say that this isn't the time for on the job training for a passive ruler.

Ulfric doesn't submit to the moot until he's already gotten some military victories, that's true. But if it were my PC calling the shots, Elisif would not have kept her head let alone her jarlship, and I wouldn't let Balgruuf sit around and make threats towards Ulfric, either. So Ulfric is not nearly as bloodthirsty as he could be, and as a similar ruler in actual medieval history would have been.

Well, that's not exactly a bad thing, is it? A combined force would be much more sucessfull in driving those pesky Elves back into the sea than single scattered countries fearing for their own tails.

He Gave them info About the imperial city...In Other words he is giving info to the thalmor(Which is the outside group) He did this dispite being tortured, With his free will (And dont give me the excuse that he Was tortured, Many other vidoe Game Charcters were tortured MASSIVLEY And never gave in, Examples: Solid snake, Big Boss, The Dead guy from COD wAw, Theres numerous other examples! Plus Many other Example, Eddard Stark)

You would too if you were brutally tortured

As I said to my grandparents when George Bush started his bull sh1t war, having "balls" isnt always a good thing.

Not to mention, Ulfric is a discriminating racist pig who is the last person that should be in charge of a nation.

Honestly My Father(Im not young) Is a police Officer And I know for thank that he would never Give in...Never, I use him as a example....Im Very Loyal to me country and i WOULD Prefer to die then betray IT!

...Oblivion really made people forget that the Elder Scrolls universe is rife with racist undertones, didn't it?

Have you ever been tortured?

Eddard Stark wasn't tortured, son. And just ask me if I give a **** that some dude in COD didn't give in under torture. If that's your reasoning for saying Ulfric is a Thalmor agent now, as of game time, then you haven't got any. Which I was pretty sure was the case to begin with.

The information he gave them wasn't what led to the Imperial City's downfall. I come back to what I said earlier... reading comprehension. Use it.

Solid snake should be High King, he was tortured and didnt give in.


...sorry...

HE Was Massivley and Mentally Tortured during his "stay" In the Red Keep! And That "Cod: Guy refused to give in after getting a cigar In his Fricken Eye!

It's a fair enough point, but I think that given the advisers Torygg had at his disposal, plus Tullius, with Ulfric's backing, he would have served well enough. In short, I believe the safety net was sufficient without slaughtering thousands and weakening not only the province itself, but potentially destabilising the Empire.

Whether Ulfric is bloodthirsty isn't really my point. I was disputing whether or not it's an overthrow, and given he needs to depose existing nobility in order to gain enough support, I think it clearly is.

EDIT:

I like how you took a basic comment about a racist character and manipulated it into both a stab at an old game and an insult to my intelligence. Shut the hell up would you?

Hey hey hey, no hatin.

He's just saying that throughout the games other races have been racist.

Could have said it nicer, but whatev

I can't see how Ulfric is racist.

"contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset"
What Do you say About that

The quote could still be read that he went rogue after Marakrth, FWIW. Which doesn't make him a Thalmor agent now, but does confirm that he was.

It means they're able to get to him if they want. That doesnt mean he's a Thalmor

And he is still is being manipulated And sky It proved THAT He was indeed A THALMOR Agent

...Where does it say that? They said they could get to him

HE IS! His rebelliion Has punched The Empire in the FACE! Thats what the Thalmor want TO Weaken the Empire! He is unwillingly Doing there biding!

That doesnt mean hes working for them. Thalmor wanting him to weaken the empire is a fact, but he's not a spy for it

Calm down. I apologize as if I came off as crass, but my point still stands. The Elder Scrolls universe is not some happy go lucky place where all these various races live and work together in peace and harmony (Much as they were portrayed in Oblivion - and even then there was Leyawiin), there's always been racism in respective provinces, and ultimately Ulfric doesn't come across as any more racist then other characters in Skyrim.

Heck, at least he lets the Dunmer stay in the Grey Quarter. A handful of Khaijit can't even enter a town proper and in Whiterun Redguards were forcefully ejected and one even imprisoned.


Then again, my perceptions are being colored by the book I found "A Dunmer's Guide to Skyrim", that basically amounted to a Racist Dunmer making boasts about how the Dark Elves would conquer Windhelm and then go on to conquer Skyrim and slaughter the Nord population.

He WAS! Thats what i was wanting to prove As i said before He was INDEED A thalmor Agent!