Alright, I can't do this anymore. You're not getting it.

I'm just refering you to this link, and I'm done.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-OHjVJlsAyrI/TfpBKo6DQYI/AAAAAAAABto/_JNaBiys6lA/s1600/it%2527s_time_to_stop_posting-%2528n1296694987668%2529.jpg

The race card is kind of meaningless in TES as all the races are pretty much equally racist so it would be unfair to expect one race/faction to be the epitome of multicultural fairness while ignoring that the others are not.

I doubt that the Thalmar would be very kind to the peoples of Skyrim if they conquered, or the Dummer.

My main issue with Ulfric is that he is causing division at a time where the Empire needs to be strong and united against a hostile threat, as it stands, as other people have pointed out, he seems to be little more than an agent of chaos unwittingly working in the Thalmars favour. He certainly has reason for feeling the way he does as his peoples culture is being trodden underfoot by the pact made between the Empire and Thalmar.

Thats what I thought. I wanted to punch them all in the face and be like, "Um, hello. Thalmor still hate you, and there's dragons?"

An unwitting Thalmor agent though. There's a difference between being taken advantage of and active collaboration.

To be honest, after listening to Tullius (Who, coincidentally, is remarkably racist towards the native Nords) and seeing how the Jarl manages things (Ultimately poorly)...I'm seriously considering siding with the Stormcloaks. Ulfric is by no means a perfect solution, but ultimately why should the sons and daughters of Skyrim be required to shed their blood on foreign soil? Or have it be dictated what Gods are acceptable to worship?

No matter how much personal courage Titus Mede II showed in the battle for the Imperial City, the ultimate truth of the matter is the White Gold Concordant was the same demands issued by the Thalmor that Mede refused initially. He threw the lives of his subjects away for nothing.

If you ask me, the man deserves nothing in return.

Gorilla tactics . . . LMFAO

Try 'guerilla' next time, OP.

He did The treaty To save His people, The Empire was about to fall...And that Would mean the enslavement of humanity! Actually Im getting quite tired Fighting...And Mede SACRIFICED His Public image for his people!

He'd just achieved a crushing military victory and captured one of the heads of the Thalmor campaign. The Imperial City had been retaken and morale had never been higher.

And then he surrendered. Mede didn't dictate the terms of a peace accord from a position of strength that his victories entitled him to. As for the Empire falling apart...ceding large portions of Hammerfell to the Aldmeri Dominion and outlawing Talos worship seemed to cause the Empire to fracture just as easily. Better to die on your feet then live on your knees. Teach the Thalmor the same lesson St. Alyissea taught the Alyieds.

"After the war, contact was established", and Ulfric "had proven his worth" as an asset. This was before Markarth, when he was forming the Stormcloaks. I'm really struggling not to read this as active collaboration. I can believe, based on the dossier, that he went rogue after the Markarth Incident. I cannot believe that he never acted, knowingly, to further the Thalmor's agenda.

I completely agree that the terms of the Concordat svcked, even though peace was necessary. IIRC, even Tullius believes that Titus II conceded too much. But the point is, instead of focusing on what svcked about the treaty, Skyrim needs to prepare for the next war, and I believe that the Empire holds the best chance of prevailing.

He LOST 3 Legions! And his remaining Legions had Only HALF There Numbers

Ok, no problem >.< thanks.
But to respond i'll say that I *know* that many people in the ES universe are extremely racist and it's nothing new and astounding. HOWEVER - I still dont feel that excuses the characters themselves (lol at this being about just a video game) and it certainly doesnt make me any more accepting of Ulfric. I think that both the imperials and the stormcloaks are unfit to rule. I dont claim to know who *should* but if given a choice I'm sure I could find someone better.

Admittedly, I have yet to actually view this dossier. And I'm not so blind to reality to not realize the Thalmor would capitalize on the Nord's ceding from the Empire. I truly went to Solitude with the full intention of joining the Legion despite my dislike for them. Tullius seriously made me reconsider my stance, and the future "High Queen" isn't much better.

And Ulfric's too intelligent not to realize his stances would further Thalmor designs. It says something that the man feels so strongly not to pursue the course he did any way. Though to be fair, if the Court of Solitude had abided by the tradition of Personal Combat instead of just branding him a traitor, things might have turned out much different.



And the Thalmor had been beaten. Rally your population, raise the banners, conduct the Night Ritual, make some bargains with Daedric Princes...do whatever you have to to keep momentum on your side - at least until the Thalmor in Hammerfell had been driven into the sea.




On the contrary, I adore the fact Bethesda has crafted a game where passions run this deep. It means the players actually care about the game world, which is probably the greatest compliment you can give a game.

It's http://imperial-library.info/content/skyrim-thalmor-dossier-ulfric-stormcloak, if you're interested, and it's pretty damning. I agree, Elisif seems less than proficient, but her advisers are pretty much on the ball; hopefully, with time and with guidance, she can become a capable, or at least competent, ruler. I've already argued against dueling for the throne in this thread, but basically it's a stupid idea and it should not be abided by.

I agree, it is great,how well it can immerses the player, I guess I just though it was a little funny that this isnt even a real-world issue. = P

Although Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are very good and really are great people, I feel out of place joining them as I was an Imperial. Not to mention http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak. Yeah, I understand Ulfric and I really want to support him but that means having the rest of Tamriel deal with the Thalmor and I can't do that to my character's homeland.

Ulfric's an idiot. He was fine with Skyrim being part of the Empire before the Thalmor banned Talos worship. The ONLY argument he has is the ban on the worship of Talos. He was a hero in the Imperial Legion for crying out loud. He was fine with Skyrim being part of the Empire. If the Thalmor were ever defeated and driven from Skyrim, the Empire would instantly allow the worship of Talos, again. Problem solved. It behooves Ulfric to help the Empire in every way possible to hasten the return of Talos worship. He should be using his talent with the Voice to help drive out the Thalmor, not harm the fight against them. Can you imagine how much stronger the Empire would be with Ulfric AND the Dovakiin on the same side? Not to mention the Dovakiin's power to call his dragon helper when needed.

No, I'm sorry. If you side with Ulfric you're an idiot. I could start 100 new games in Skyrim and I will never side with the Stormcloaks.

I love these threads because nobody gives all the info and posters continues to propogate false information.

When the empire signed the treaty BOTH empire and thalmor werent in a position to win a protracted war but the emperor didnt know this so made the right choice for his people but in reality its not the empire anymore. The thalmor are happy to wait a century if thats what it takes but are going to break the treaty and everyone knows this and instead of the provinces being in a drawn out fight for independance all the conflicts need to be resolved as quickly as possible but are deadlocked. Trying to maintain a dead government when all non mer life is being threatened isnt in anyones best interest except the thalmor.

Ulfric idesires power and isnt a likable character to many, he is also the only character in the game presented to us thats actually capable of uniting the country. Under his rule Talos isnt a sleeping god worshipped privately but would be worshipped openly giving the humans a bit of divine power. I dont know a single person with religious beliefs that could stand being told to worship their god only in private and find it acceptable, I would consider myself to be an atheist and find this unacceptable. Many comment in these threads about racism with little actual evidence as bethesda has intentionally NOT made him clearcut racist and the tensions of his city are ALL player impression. The NPC are divided even amongst the seperate races and opinions differ in a balanced manner so that the play has to inject their own conclusions. Not all the Dunmer think they have a fair complaint and a recent high elf immigrant thinks the racism is exaggerated but some of the nords are actually racist. Having played all the storylines everyone is racist.

The thalmor arent invincible and I dont understand why the pro empire think they are or can use this as an arguement, they suffered in the great war as well and dont have the resources to conquer the world or they would have already.

As with all the factions whoever you the dragonborn choose to represent is the correct one as nobody has done anything of value in tamriel since the champion of cyrodil during the oblivion crysis and some feller called martin.

Whether a duel for the throne should be abided by or not, it was ancient Nord Tradition and was never stricken from the records as a illegitimate means of succession. For that matter, even taking everything else aside, the cold blooded execution of a City Guard who followed said ancient tradition was completely unnecessary.

And thank you for the link to the dossier, but I read it much differently then you. The way I read it, Ulfric was manipulated into believing he was a traitor to the Empire, and everything since has been the Thalmor using that mistaken belief. Indeed, the Dossier even stresses that a Stormcloak victory would not be the best outcome, so really the Thalmor are just playing the angles and trying to keep the bloodshed going. Either one, the Empire or the Stormcloaks, would be a damaging setback to the Thalmor, and Ulfric's reliability as a "asset" is shaky at best.

The most they could do is blackmail him for his supposed guilt and former dealings with them. He was an agent of the Thalmor, but appearently the Markarth Incident backfired on them in his case.

Like I said, I believe it's entirely possible that Ulfric went rogue after Markarth. In fact, I believe that's probably the case - that he saw an opportunity for self-advancement in the movement he had created and promptly turned on his elven masters. And I definitely agree that the Thalmor want the civil war to drag on, rather than seeing either side prevail. That said, I believe their preference is Continued War > Stormcloaks > Empire.

We know that succession by duel is supported by tradition; we have no indication (that I know of) that it is an article of law. If it is not, then the guard's execution becomes a simple matter, legally speaking. The guard was, according to the captain who oversaw his execution, a good and honorable man. I envision his honor coming into conflict with his legal duties, and he chose to obey tradition rather than law. If succession by duel is an article of law, however, things get a lot murkier.

Well, also to be fair, the beginning of the game shows what the empire thinks about Skyrim traditions like the moot. Also the fact that they tried to seize Ulfric after his duel with Torygg and cut the head off of the guy who let Ulfric out of Solitude. Ulfric wants to restore the customs, but from his point of view, years of the empire hand-picking high kings and jarls has to be evened out. He was even willing to allow Legate Rikke to honorably surrender and leave the country. And he only detains the Imperial jarls, he doesn't execute them. They're all sitting in the basemant of the Blue Palace noshing on boiled sweet and griping about how they're going to make him pay. All in all Ulfric is pretty even handed.

Earlier someone was asking where Ulfric says that all Nords can learn the thu'um. I took a http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv146/gmosko/Ulfricthuumdialogue.jpg. To be fair to Torygg, Ulfric was chosen as a child for the purpose of becoming a Greybeard. Torygg was doing as he was expected to do. It wasn't really his fault. I can respect him for his courage at accepting Ulfric's challenge- even though he didn't have much choice.

Uh, no. You obviously weren't listening to anything. His complaint is that after Nords bled to defend Cyrodiil, winning the Battle of Red Ring, the emperor signed a treaty that gave the Thalmor pretty much all they wanted anyway. It is not just about Talos worship. That is a symbol of the Empire caving in to the Thalmor, cooperating with them, going so far as to let them operate in Skyrim and torture Stormcloaks on their behalf.

This is also what Galmar tells you, when you say that Nords have always been a part of the Empire. "Not this empire."

"Going rogue" implies that he was willingly, knowingly working with the Thalmor in the first place. I don't see ANY evidence of this. In fact I see the opposite in the dossier. He tried to escape- whether that was allowed or not doesn't matter. If he's trying to escape from them, why in hell would he work for them? "His elven masters"? Holy [censored].

I can't believe we're still talking about this.

That doesn't mean he was working with them knowingly. They stirred up the Markarth incident, that I can believe. It's in keeping with their goals of creating chaos in Skyrim. That Ulfric would escape from the Thalmor, then get a message from them saying "yo, Thalmor here, go do this thing for us"- and he says "oh my benevolent elven masters, I am yours to command"? That makes zero sense.

I would say it is primarily how one group's Freedom Fighter is another groups Terrorist.

The Imperials may call the Stormcloaks terrorists. But I respect someone more who will fight until the death for what they believe in than someone who will fight for a paycheck until it gets too hairy.