*Spoilers*


Please correct me if I'm incorrect about any of this lore.

I hate the Thalmer as much as the next guy, and believe me when I read that dossier I was pissed. But when I stopped to think about it, the Empire gave up without even trying to unite all of Tamriel and keep fighting. The Thalmer are in a weakened position as well, that's why there was a treaty and not a full hostile takeover. I sided with the the only guy that had enough balls to kick some yellow elf ass, and that's exactely what Skyrim needs or it's going to get stomped.

Throughout (our) history people protecting their own homes with gorilla tactics have protected their homes against far more powerful enemies. With the mountainous terrain and ferocious wildlife of Skyrim, and complete takeover would be near impossible. Remember these people are fighting for their faith, the most powerful motivation there is.

Half the empires army is Nordic, and all true sons of Skyrim would gladly fight to protect their homeland. Not to mention that the army of Skyrim is led my the Dovahkiin and his dragon army!!!

The Dovahkiin has one dragon sworn to fight along side him, and Parthurnaxx which leads half of the remaining dragons! These dragons are very smart, and would be willing to unload their urge to slaughter for the only man that can easily kill them for good.

If the Thalmer are the bad guys, and the Empire is wrong, what does that make me? It makes me right!

I read some really bad stuff about Ulfric, but then I noticed the book was written by an imperial guy so it may have a bias.

I like Ulfric, but I see the point some make when they voice their dislike. His is pretty self-obsessed but he fights for freedom.

If you look at the war, the Empire couldn't have won. They had no army left, and who could they all upon to help them? The current Dovahkiin wasn't alive at the time.

Even now I don't think the Empire could win. Maybe if they had the Greybeards, Dragonborn, and a huge army out of nowhere they could pull it off.

Ulfric isn't as bad as everybody says he is.

But he is acting too quickly. He needs to wait, and gather his strength, like the Empire. They need to strike when the iron is hot, and toss the Thalmor out of Tamriel, or, better yet, into the depths of Oblivion. If the Stormcloaks win the war, they'll only lose countless more lives as the Thalmor swoop in, unhindered by the White-Gold Concordant.

As it is now, I can understand Ulfric's quickness to act, but patience is more important at the moment for the long-term life of Skyrim.

The court wizard in Solitude said it best. Ulfric reacted too quickly, and killed one of the men that respected him most, and MAY have actually declared independence, had Ulfric asked first, before shouting him to bits and pieces.

Here is how I look at it.

The Imperials are the English in the 13 and 14th century, only more civil, better organized, and a lot more powerful and accepting. And Edward Longshanks is nowhere to be seen. The Stormcloaks are like the Scottish, fighting for the freedom of their homeland from the oppressive English. But make the Scottish racist pigs who would throw everyone else out of their country if they succeeded, and don't have the foresight to realize that they would lose against the French. And then throw in Dragons, make the French into a snobby country who hold themselves superior to everyone else (oh wait, it was already like that), and are threatening everyone with either extinction or the equivalent of slavery.

Bam, Skyrim.

EDIT: As a side note, and this is something that has been mentioned a lot recently. Ulfric and the Stormcloaks talk big about how they will drive the foreigners from Skyrim at swords edge, including the Thalmar, and worship whatever god they please. They lack the foresight to realize that if the Empire, with its vast armies and a great deal more wealth than Skyrim, barely survived against the Thalmar the first time around, Skyrim would be doomed. Skyrim alone is not even a third the power of the Empire, not to mention that the Empire itself would then be doomed as well, which is exactly what the Thalmar want before they conquer Tamriel for good.

So yes, I have every reason to hate Ulfric and his "Noble intentions"

Have you seen those warriors from Hammerfell? They have curved swords. Curved. Swords.

I laughed so hard, so hard. But yeah, you're right, I vote nationalistic irl, and supported Ulfric to the boot in this game aswell.

I'm sorry, but I disagree with this. As far as Ulfric is concerned, the White Gold Concordant is out the window. Ulfric is acting as a true Nord would; the High King had so much respect for Ulfric and his ideals that he WOULD have followed him, but that isn't how Skyrim works. The High King was defeated in one-on-one combat, And now that the Empire is almost completely destroyed the Nords of the Empire will more than likely defect to Ulfric.

The Nords don't play by the rules of the Empire. There is no chance in hell that the Thalmer could take over Skyrim.

The empire falling apart now would see the elves of Alinor + minions run through the remaining provinces with ease and Talos would be a dead God instead of a sleeping one.

Why aren't the Redguards leading the Empire, by the way?

They were able to DECIMATE the Thalmor forces occupying Hammerfell, and they were even more crippled than Skyrim. Simply put, they were smarter than the elves, and better fighters than any other race. That's damned impressive.

Also, curved swords.

But, really. I can see how people like and dislike Ulfric. The Empire is trying to gather strength to be able to defeat the Thalmor, but Skyrim is suffering heavy losses while this is going on. Ulfric jumped into action, and now this crap is starting.

He isn't as good as anyone thinks either. He just wants to murder everyone who doesn't think like him, instead of letting them go.

Couple of things...

Half the Empire's army is Nordic? I have a feeling theres no source to support a statistic like that.

Also, Paarthurnax is teaching his dragons the Way of the Voice, a philosophy that is pacifistic by nature. I doubt they'll involve themselves in a war that doesn't concern them, same thing with the Greybeards.

The Empire will eventually do the same thing you've described if it remains intact, except it won't be just Skyrim out there but High Rock and Cyrodiil as well, maybe even Hammerfell. No one believes the peace is going to last, and Tullias states that the Legion will need to start gearing up for the hostilities to begin again. A unified Empire has a far greater chance to take down the Thalmor than Skyrim rushing to do so without much support.

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Also, this should probably all get moved to spoilers pronto, wrong section to have this stuff

Meh,

Story wise, the Imperials have better equality and living standereds compared to the third world Nords. Ulfric is just a terrorist.

If they fought to the "bitter end" then why was there a truce? Tamriel has FAR more fight left in it. There is much more than just the Empire left to fight. And a "truce" is just saving your own ass.

As I see it I don't believe the Stromcloaks will be able to keep the Aldmeri Dominion out and not to mention counter-attack. I believe it would be beneficial for Skyrim to be independent and I would have supported the Stormcloaks if it weren't for the Thalmor, but since they Thalmor are quite powerful and independence would lead to a two/one war(both the Empire and Thalmor) I believe that he Empire is Skyrims best choice for survival.

He challenged the king and the king accepted the challenge. The king had the choice of going with the Nord way and accepting the challenge or rejecting the nord way and have ulfric arrested. Since he accepted the challenge its not murder.

Because they didn't do it alone, they had Legion "invalids" that the General on that front left behind to handle the situation. By that time, the Aldmeri had also given up on Hammerfell as a main objective and were massing on the Imperial City. The Redguards and Legion invalids were then able to mop up the remaining Aldmeri left behind.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/photos/images/original/000/063/491/my_trap_card.jpg?1318992465

Ulfric was STUPID AS HELL. He spoke for independence for Skyrim in a meeting of the Jarls, bordering on treason. He won over every ounce of respect from the High King. Ulfric realized he needed a symbol, so he killed the most powerful person in Skyrim, who more than likely WOULD HAVE followed him, if he had only asked. So, he put ALL of Skyrim into disarray, all for a 'symbol' to show he was strong.

Now he talks about Skyrim being free, when it will just be a bloodbath if he succeeds or if he loses. If he loses, hundreds of Stormcloaks will die in a vain attempt to liberate Skyrim. If he wins, thousands will die in a successful attempt to liberate Skyrim cut short by a massive wave of Thalmor soldiers washing over all of Skyrim. Sure, the Thalmor may not conquer Skyrim, but they'll kill countless innocents and soldiers, which is NOT worth the cost of independence a few years earlier.

The worst thing is that the problems in Skyrim weren't that bad until Ulfric started talking [censored] about the Thalmor. The high elves didn't want to freeze their asses off in Skyrim hunting down humans worshiping Talos. They HAD to when Ulfric said it was still widely practiced. Now dozens of people are being dragged out of their houses at night and butchered.

Hell, I'm thinking he's completely in support of the Thalmor. All his attempts are weakening the Empire and Skyrim, something the Thalmor want dearly, so they can kill the beast at last, and conquer Tamriel. Even if he isn't, he's still doing it out of selfish needs more likely than not, considering he killed the High King, somebody who RESPECTED HIM GREATLY.

If he was truly fighting for Skyrim, he would have relied on the common tongue to talk to Torygg, not the Dragon tongue.

The Gray Beards are pacifistic by nature as well.. Try punching one in the face three times. Skyrim is the home to the dragons, and they are far too prideful to refuse the call of the dovahkiin to war.

And i'll be more clear... a LARGE portion of the Empire is Nordic. The empire screwed over the Orcs as well. Some of the finest warriors in the Empire front line, and never helped them from getting sacked multiple times in the pursue of making a home for themselves.

There are a lot of revolutions to be had here following this.

Bitter end is a bit of an exaggeration. But it still rings true to an extent. The Empire fought until the war reached a point that if they continued to fight, they would be deadlocked into a losing war with nothing left to offer. They stopped while they still had some strength left, but before they hit that point where they would have been so shattered as to not be able to establish a truce of any kind. The Thalmar would've just continued the war and taken over completely.

As for Hammerfell, it is one thing to take on a small portion of the Thalmar while they are busy with a war all over.

Skyrim cannot survive on its own. The Nords would love to think that they can do better than the Empire, but they just can't. They don't have the military strength or strategy to properly defeat the Aldmeri, they might not die, but they would be driven to the hills to fight out of caves and mountain hideouts.

And Ulfric respected the High King enough to allow him a one-on-one fight. The High King accepted, out of respect. So what if Ulfric brought this to home, now he has in control a General with the power of a god! And an army of DRAGONS!

BOTTOM LINE

Any side that the Dovahkiin chose would have won the civil war and defeated the Thalmer. I picked the side with enough balls to get it done in a respectable amount of time.

I think people are forgetting... Skyrim= Dovahkiin= Power of a god and a dragon army. It's going to be a helluva fight for the Thalmer either way.

Any true son of Skyrim will fight for the Dovahkiin, for Ulfric, or for Talos. A united Skyrim against one evil.

What people forget is that Nords have a "Honor or Death" philosophy.

YES they would be wiped out if the empire falls, but they could care less, because their deaths will be glorious and they will be honored as heroes in Sovngarde for eternity.

/Thread