That, in my opinion, was already not that great of an idea in Morrowind.

Still, on a meta-level I could argue that the skills in Morrowind are not the skills of professional fighters, but the skills of adventurers who indeed lean towards smaller weapons. Skyrim however is in a war-like state at the moment, and there ought to be soldiers of sorts.


I see your point. But if games only do what most people want, they get dumbed down. I want games to meet a high quality level that you might not agree with. I am that selfish/elitist. And my favorite game is made by people who said "we make this game for ourselves. We don't care about what others want". It's pretty much the most fun game I've ever played. If you turn game design into a democracy, you end up with stuff like CoD4.

And before you say it: I know that I'm in a minority and have no specific right for my opinion to be accepted by the Devs. But I'll still try convincing people and perhaps, eventually, making the Developers consider my ideas. If they agree, that'd be great. So i keep trying.

There's a line between dumbing down and prioritising, and I believe the exclusion of spears is most definitely the latter. The game didn't get magically simpler and more twee because one weapon got left out. It doesn't effect the levelling system, it doesn't change the plot, it's one weapon type. I also want my games to be at a "high quality level" - and that means every feature is implemented correctly. That takes time and resources, and for something like spears, I'd much rather that effort be spent elsewhere. Arguably, the decision to remove spears isn't so much as issue of game design as project management.

Just out of curiosity, which game are you referring to?

EDIT: Off to work now. Fun talking to you.

You misunderstood me there, I'm not saying this descision in design has anything to do with dumbing down. I meant developers doing exactly what the majority of the audience want always results in worse games than what could come out of the mind of a few people who really think stuff through.
I meant that spears are one of the things the game should, in my opinion (i'd classify myself as a simulationist/dramatist in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threefold_Model-terms) include. Among other things. And that if Bethesda listened only to me, we'd have a game that you most players wouldn't like. If they'd only listen to you, me and most others probably wouldn't like it. But if they'd listen to everyone, noone would like the result. So the best thing they can do is pick only the good ideas from everyone, and ignore the bad ones. I think spears are a good one, and the lack of spears because they are "not important" is a bad one.

I'm referring to a mod, actually, but one that is excellent. The BF2 modification "Project Reality". But I could say similar things about other games that were made by few people with only their specific ideas in mind and turned out great. Minecraft for example, Amnesia, or Mount & Blade. All these are games for very specific audiences, but their quality level for those who like them is high. Other games, for example the recent Call of Duty or Battlefield sequels, appeal to a large audience; but their quality in detail is (if we take into account how much more funding they have) worse.



Heh. I'm off to bed soon Thank you for the discussion

Cool, now you have other polearms, just not spears, I'm not seeing the problem here. The only difference is that the other polearms look more ornate and that they swing instead of stab. So basically the only real difference is the stabbing. I don't see why stabbing someone with a pole weapon is such a big deal to overwrite the fact of polearms are in the game so spears are basically back in with the difference that they now look better and don't stab. That's the only difference and I don't see why anyone can be disappointed. Would you rather have less weapons that in no way resemble spears?

I think halberds are more useful to be honest. If i was entering the kind of combat that Skyrim offers i would much rather have something that can thrust and slice.

Am I missing something? Were Halberds confirmed as two-handed weapons? With spears confirmed out, I don't see why the hell this is even being discussed unless I've missed something.

The multiple concept art of polearms such as Halberds and Bardiches plus Todd's comment in the Toddcast has all but confirmed it.

Did you read what I said? I want spears because I connect the Nordic setting with spears. Not with halberds. With spears. Because of the way they look. I want town guards to stand in front of the gates, with spears in their hands. I want warriors with spear and shield. I want to think "hey, this looks viking" not "hey, this looks... wait, where's the spears?"

You may connect it to Nordic setting but it doesn't make it part of the Nords society. Redguards are the ones that are most closely associated with spears anyhow. Town guards can sit in front of the gates with their Bardiche and basically look the exact same as a spear in their hand, only better looking. I don't see the argument here if all you want is the look <_<

as far as i can tell from their previous games, the way melee worked is hack & slash ( not refering to the genre but the way the weapons hit your target ) and you always could move around while swinging with ur melee weapon.
im just guessing here but i think their problem with spears is that they penetrate and while u can move it would around while ur hitting ur target it would be unrealistic or some other troubles their having with it.
ofcourse i would love to see a spear, a cape, a leather underwear and a big round shield in skyrim so i could just pick a human and call him leonidas and kick poeple in wells with no end. and yell at my screen " this is skyrim " but you gotta understand you cant have everything you want in a multiplatform game.
and about the not being able while dual wielding i dont care, im happy they are featuring it. tho i'd love if they make u be able to dodge incoming attacks.

The Nords are inspired by the viking-age scandinavians. And in their societies, spears were highly important. To look at something that looks exactly like a viking warrior but then has a halberd, claymore or the gods know what in his hands just breaks my will to suspend disbelief. Yes, town guards with bardiches look cool as well. In a different setting. As I said, personally I prefer the halberd over the spear. And in a redguard-setting, I'd sure expect to see those.

Inspired, not identical. There are plenty of differences in the fictional nords versus vikings. None of the races are synonymous with those in the real world. For example, Dwemer society is based off of Mesopotamian society yet they have so many differences.

uh... ok .... yea.. two weapons completely different in strategic value using the same slashing attack? a spear is admired for it's length and defensive capabilities. the stabbing would result in a longer range, with a penalty to accuracy. what i mean is slashing horizontally has a larger attack radius than a narrow stab. it's much easier to move out of the way of a distant spear thrust rather than an up close and personal sword slash agree? but if slashes look more fabulous to you thats cool. hey i bet you'd like swoosh! sounds after each slash (like a jet breaking the sound barrier) and pretty light following the weapon like in fable...

In reality yes, in a game no. People can't seem to look past "I want spears because it was in Morrowind!" and realize it's been replaced by a weapon almost exactly like it. The difference is it's balanced without having to spend excessive amounts of time balancing it. The problem with spears is that you stab so the weapon is between you and the enemy, effectively making it an amazingly effective at offense and defense simultaneously. This allows for you to have them stay at a distance while fighting someone. It may take longer because you deal less damage but you take minimal damage because of said attack. With a swing, it allows for easier counter attacks when you begin the swing while the spear does not because it is between you and the enemy so there is no open gap to counter attack.

Spears and halberds are the same weapon, polearms, by definition.

Maybe the spear user has to use the spear realistically(draw back spear before thrusting to gain force... this would be an oppurtunity to attack)? what if CPUs circle you(occasionally)? or if the amount of time your stunned when an enemy blocks your attack increases(with spear)? of course thats not necesarry because regardless how long a spear is you could still cover the distance to attack (after you block the attack). and it's not online like Demons Souls lol.. elder scrolls CPUs are easy kill , regardless of what weapons they have. we will have fun with whatever bethesda designs into the game. your probably right, but i prefer distinction over standardization... last word: bethesda has had 5 years to work on it

http://www.google.bg/images?um=1&hl=bg&biw=1111&bih=466&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=halberd&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq= is basically a spear with a axe head, see http://www.google.bg/images?um=1&hl=bg&biw=1111&bih=466&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=polearm&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq= . Good for overhead swings, side swings, even for disarming... not good for thursts.

http://www.google.bg/images?um=1&hl=bg&biw=1111&bih=466&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=spear&aq=f&aqi=g1g-s1g1g-s1g6&aql=&oq= are good for thurst strikes, spears that are good for swinging are called http://www.google.bg/images?hl=bg&biw=1111&bih=466&q=naginata&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi


or better yet, http://medieval.stormthecastle.com/images/new-polearm-thumbs.jpg

class dismissed

This was sort've obvious and no one disputed this.

The point people don't see to realize is that it saves time making a spear-esque weapon that is already balanced with minimum amount of time due to swinging then spending time bringing real spears back and eating up development time trying to fine tune spears. I keep getting attacked when I explain that BGS has tried to compromise with the hardcoe spear fans and yet you don't care and you spit in their face and the face of people that try to explain it. I'm tired of the hostility from everyone on these forums when you disagree with them and give reasons why and they go "Your arrogant for saying this and this and it's just your opinion it shouldn't be in". And what I say to those people are "It's only your opinion that spears should be in."

Well, i see what you mean, it's common on forum boards don't let it bug ya

the only problem with that arguement is plenty of recent games have used spears. including Demons Souls, which focused entirely on combat. dual wielding, dragons and finishing moves(in Demons Souls) are not original ideas. let's not pretend everything in TES is brilliantly original. how long do you seriously think it would take to animate a thrusting motion into a game? there are plenty of 21st century games with spears BGS can borrow from. it's ok to say you hate thrusting spears but this is getting annoying

Thrusting spears... :blush:


In order to continue, you'll have to realize that some have trouble discerning between an advantage in using a particular weapon (for instance, spears let you strike from slightly further away), and a weapon being unbalanced (for instance, Sonic's Final Smash in Brawl allowing you to kill almost everybody twice).

There is no catch-pole in that. :laugh:

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/Gizmojunk/im_0649_zp.jpg

Adding polearms that have a swing animation and spears with a thrust animation require the same amount of effort to "balance". Really, the only person that is against this seems to be you, everyone else says basically the same thing which is: "It'd be nice to have, but I can understand how it could be an issue and why they might choose not to implement it". You keep bringing up some tangent about how we're all Morrowind fanatics that want our 1 button instawin weapons. If you came into every thread about spears saying it won't be added because of development schedules, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I also don't remember anyone saying you're arrogant.

I don't think taking the time to implement spears is such an absurd idea, at the very least it should be considered for DLC or an expansion. There's obviously a decent sized audience interested in spears, and the majority wouldn't mind its implementation. I'm sure Bethesda is very busy getting this game out the door, and listening to a bunch of fans ask for a weapon type is probably the least of their worries. It's still nice to be able to talk about it and wish and hope that someone somewhere might take some initiative to try and please some fans. Like I've already said though, spears will be modded into the game, its no game breaker if Bethesda doesn't do it. It'd just be nice if they did.

Has anyone seen SaidenStorm's Spear mod?

**Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C44dK2UiQTg

I'd prefer one that only allows you to throw one spear and have to pick it up... as in the first Fallouts.

He states why he could not allow you to pick them up and "reload" (without really reloading).

Sleign is right. A Polearm can use the same animations as any two handed weapon. Balancing them is easy. Tweak reach so it goes to the end of the weapon, slow it down because it is heavy, give it a little more damage to offest the low speed, and add a bit of weight. Once the weapon is modeled it takes a minute to get a decent idea of what works, then another 5 to test and tweak.

Spears require a lot more to add. the first question they ask is it a thrusting spear or throwing spear? From there they need their own animations. Got to give it working flight for a throwing spear, thats another couple days getting right. For either type of spear it then needs some basic stats and then they test it. If it isn't working they tweak what they need, or scrap it and try again. Spears are also an entirely different fighting style than a claymore, so they need to make sure that it is viable in the new combat system. After a few weeks, they have an idea of how it works. then they actually try and implement them. Don't forget about the entirely different AI needed for Spears too.