There are some good observations here.

Consider this sentence: "And to this host appeared at last a spirit who resembled none other than El-Estia, queen of ancienttimes, who bore in her left hand the dragonfire of the aka-tosh and in her right hand the jewels of the covenant and on her briast a wound that spilt void onto her mangled feet. And seeing El-Estia and Chim-el Adabal, Hrol and his knights wailed and set to their knees and prayed for all things to become as right."

Now, who is http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/adabala.shtml?

In my mind, the Dragonfires are what allows the godly Empire to continue without the presence of divine or extraordinary events or actors.

Hrol sacrificed in order to reforge the Covenant, just like Martin. MK has said some things about it:




Saint Alessia and Hrol made love and Cyrodiil swelled a hill like a womb and gave birth to Reman. There's your political system. Reman III was just riding coattails like he was supposed to.

What I'm saying here is a point against the opening post of this thread. Where it is speculated:

"Why didn't they prepare for this? This is a pretty big oversight."

And I said something that had a few flaws, but the core point still stands pretty well:

Rulership in Tamriel is of a divine nature. The dragonfires are lit with the Amulet. The Amulet is an artifact forged of a combination of the Divine and the mundane, with the souls of past Emperors inside.

The Covenant decided the rulers. And so there was no way to "prepare" for an upset. The divine forces that forged the covenant originally would have to compensate somehow.

Am I missing something here?

No god determined that Uriel would give birth to Enman. But the Covenant could perhaps solidify the claim of a distant relative if he was seen to have the Dragon Blood. Put on the Amulet and rule. It's the Sorting Hat with Soul. Who was Talos, after all, to claim the throne and call himself the kin of Akatosh? He was a kid from High Rock who liked to pretend that he was a Nord.

Perhaps a better question is how did Cyrodiil come to be so ignorant of its own founding myths, and to think that Alessia and Talos spawned nothing more than a two-bit clan with familial piety issues? That there isn't any political structure in Cyrodiil I blame on Oblivion. But why does Jauffre think that only a direct heir can wear the Amulet?

http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml#7

Certainly "providence" had a role to play in what happened in Oblivion. However, there's still a valid question about the internal workings of the empire, and specifically the nature of succession.



http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/nu-hatta.shtml

The Master proclaims:

Mine footsteps are not among those that destiny has lain,
I go where I will - a star in my chest and two in my hands.
The way is unlit, and so I illuminate all.

I am supple as clay,
I am anvil and forge,
I am destiny belied -
It is mine to accede.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tiber_Septim

According to UESP (which I hate to link)

"When he arrived, the gags of the Greybeards were removed and when they spoke his name the World shook. The Greybeards told Talos that he would come to rule Tamriel and that he must go south to do so.

So, accordingly, the "kid who pretended he was a Nord." had the Greybeards prophecy that he would be the ruler. That is why he claimed the throne.

The Skyrim army joined him when they saw him use the Thu'um, knowing him to be the "son of Skyrim and heir to the Empires of Men."


So Talos wasn't simply some boy.

You're really trying to tear down the whole "god", "Destined", "divinity", etc idea from all that I read in your posts. Why - I don't know. Are you just completely against the idea of of gods, wither it be Aedra or Daedra?

Or I may be mistaken, but, nevertheless, that is what I see.

Cyrodiil - What specific history are you referring to? If I am not mistaken, Alessia and etc was just about the start of the Cyrodiil history. So I'm confused as to what you're talking about.

But I am not sure why exactly Jauffre thinks that.

As for the political structure, this isn't some real world, nor is it ran the same way. In TES, there is magic, there is divinity, there are gods (Aedra/Daedra), and they have been frequently known to change things, as well as created royal lines. Cyrodiil was ran, as far as it's rulers, as part of a heritage and bloodline, much like the LOTR equivalent with Aragorn and his enter family.

Yes, it is a dynasty, for a specific reason - Dragonfire. Supposedly, only the royal Septim blood could light it.



(So I rambled on about nonsense, mixed with feelings. Regardless, it seems you've missed a large part of the history/lore.)

I wrote a long rant a while back about the horrible holes within the main story line. The problem I see with the royal line in this game, just wasn't handle with careful thinking.

It is mentioned by several Imperial Guards that assassins have removed emperors before. You would think that drastic actions would be taken to ensure this does not happen again as most royal courts tend to do but those actions do not seem to be taken. The feeling I get is that they were dependent on the Septum line and assumed it would carry on. However if the writers behind the lore of the game could see (with a bit of research) that not all lines of a certain blood line last forever. Precautions should have been taken to allow a new line to come into play. At the end of the game you get the feeling your to be emperor, but instead your given armor and The high hair elf is just twiddling his thumbs as if they can come up with some divine plan to hunt down another Septum.

Putting the council in charge was a strange idea for the writers to take a course to and going so far as to say there is only one council member you see throughout the whole damn game. Most of the time when a emperor, king, queen dies, their succession is moved on to the next family member-immediately. I find it rather strange that Uriel did not have anyone left all-no sisters, brothers, cousins, aunts uncles etc. While the plot was trying to get you to understand this was the last of the line, it falls short of making much sense. And it makes even less sense as Uriel's wife seems to only show up in bits and pieces and no word on if she still is alive or dead.

I do gather this is a world of magic which plays a large part within the realm, however you can easily incorporate a magic world within a royal world that makes sense and doesn't have so many holes with it. And to step to the side on something else, it's suppose to be the Imperial Palace, so where is the throne room, the emperor's room? While this may be some thing small, it does play a good part within the lore of the game, because if you step inside the palace you would get the feeling this IS in fact a palace and not some random tall building to house scholars and council members.

This only leads me to believe that when the writers sat down to create this, not much care and research was done from the royal line to the palace it's self. I'm not suggesting every little bit from royal history as we know should be incorporated, I just believe that everything should be connected without having holes.

Haha..slightly off topic, but Ocato's scripted schedule in game causes him to strangely spend a lot of time in the sewers...the fact you mention "Mandate of Heaven" causes me to chuckle, because in the Chinese epic novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms, a character named Sun Jian finds the Imperial Seal and gains the Mandate of Heaven. Where did he find it? In a well, in the Imperial City.

Perhaps Ocato is searching for it in the sewers.

What? I've been talking about divine intervention since the first post in this thread. I just don't think it's correct to say that the gods constantly dictate everything that happens around the Dragon Throne and that there is no reason for earthly political activity. Also, I don't think the Covenant is a rigid, limiting contract. You think Akatosh Mankar Camoran in mind to wear the Amulet?

My point about Talos is that he was a boy from Alcaire who joined the army. He then fabricated parts of his origins (and the accounts you mentioned are in doubt). If there was a prophecy, I still don't see as a mortal arbitrarily tapped by a Divine, more like the end result of a natural pattern that makes myth-echoes spout up like mushrooms. He wasn't related to anyone and entered from stage north to take the throne. I see him as a self-made man regardless of whether he lied his way into everything or was Dragonblood from the start.

I meant Cyrodiil was corrupt and decadent to forget its past and be so brittle. And of course it was- hell itself attacked it for chrissakes.

Talos eats your parents. And that's like, for breakfast. Imagine what he eats for lunch. You all you talk like you know: Self-made man verses god-made man. You'd be closer if you said golden-locust-swarm, but you'd still be wrong.

Anyways.

So, the emperor and his known heirs are assassinated, and apparently there isn't anyone in line to ascend the throne on such an occasion, except an unknown (and unknowing) secret heir. This situation generates a question: seeing that the imperial line isn't constant (assassinations have happened before, as has been said), and seeing the importance having a Emperor on the throne (to keep hell from breaking loose, and all), why isn't a better system in place to deal with such a scenario?

One (the obvious) answer, is that it was a developer shortcut, an attempt to get the player to start questing.

Another answer (to build off some of the posts in this thread), is that the answer lies in the ineffable will of the gods.

The problem is that neither one of these answers is really satisfactory. The first answer needs some in-game counterpart to make it work. The second answer needs some explication to make it convincing.

So, the challenge, apparently, is to come up with a good explanation for what happened.

And having taken some time to think on it, here's the explanation I'll propose (by which I mean totally make up, unless someone can provide an "official" answer):

Accounts indicate that when Uriel first met the yet-to-be Champion of Cyrodiil (in the Imperial Prison, of all places), Uriel recognized the hero from his dreams, and also indicated prescience of his oncoming demise. It is not clear how long he had been having these dreams, but reports indicate the emperor was very calm when discussing his own impending death. This suggests that Emperor Septim may have known about the attempt on his life for quite some time. Time enough, perhaps, to make arrangements so that upon his death, the only heir would be Martin.

But why?

You make a nice argument, unlike the other fellow, imo.

"However if the writers behind the lore of the game could see (with a bit of research) that not all lines of a certain blood line last forever."

-Well, to be honest, that's just common sense/knowledge. And for people who write lore, especially ones based on real history, they surely know this without having to do extra research. I mean, no research is needed for that.

But yes, they were dependent, you know? The Septims, according to legend, are the only ones who light the dragonfires. And, from the loading screens on Oblivion (don't feel like researching online, right now.), it seems the person who is to light them/lit them has to be the emperor. I'm most likely mistaken, as my memory is hazy about the loading screens.


"Precautions should have been taken to allow a new line to come into play. At the end of the game you get the feeling your to be emperor, but instead your given armor and The high hair elf is just twiddling his thumbs as if they can come up with some divine plan to hunt down another Septum. "

-I agree, but what could they do? They can't simply clone or create a new Septim. Nor can they - Oh.... Oh my. I just had a thought.

The "High Hair Elf" (lol) mentions that Mehrunes and his kin has been sealed forever in-game. http://www.imperial-library.info/tsoo/tsoo15.shtml

"Liann
Yes. He shattered the Amulet...

High Chancellor Ocato
The joined blood of kings and gods. The Amulet of Kings. The divine power of Akatosh.

Liann
...and Martin's blood, too...

High Chancellor Ocato
Then Martin is gone...

Liann
But the gates are sealed.

High Chancellor Ocato
Yes. Sealed forever. Mehrunes Dagon and his ilk can never threaten Tamriel again. Martin is dead. But he died an emperor, and a hero to rival Tiber Septim.

Liann
What about the Empire?

High Chancellor Ocato
This victory is not without cost. We've lost Martin Septim. What an emperor he might have made. His sacrifice was necessary, but it leaves the Empire without an emperor. I don't know what happens now. There are troubled times ahead for the Empire. But now is not the time to worry about the future. Let's just give thanks that we're alive."

So this means a new, non-royal-blood can be chosen, and they don't need a Septim... Am I right?

They could simply choose a proper candidate, now.

It seems in the end, the Writers/Devs did think about it. They had the last of the Septim do what what no other could, and he did it better. He sealed the gates forever, finally protecting Cyrodiil without the need of the dragonfires.

It's a good thing, too, considering he was the last one.

Lots of interesting stuff so far. Once again I do feel like I don't get the full picture of what's going on since I did not start with Arena back in the 90's. For various reasons, including not owning a PC full time until 2002 I couldn't really get into the earlier iterations of the series or the lore there in. Quite sad, really, but I am piecing things together. I have no problem with "God did it" or some variation as an explanation here, as this is a work of fiction, and the gods/mysticism play a big role in the game world to be sure. I'm also fully willing to accept "convenience" or "lack of time" to explain why the writers and the developers themselves didn't really think it necessary to go into too much detail here. Sometimes game design, pragmatism and the limits of time and money dictate the loss of certain levels of detail and that's not something I'm here to rail against. Good points have been made, but I still feel the big open question is what happened to the rest of the Septims? After all these years, unless by edit of law, improbable accident, or divine influence there should be quite possibly thousands upon thousands of persons with some degree of Septim blood in their veins. Yet in the time of Oblivion, it appears Martin Septim is indeed the -only- survivor of this venerable line. Perhaps the answer is "destiny" and everyone else died so that the player (and Martin) could solve the problem at the last minute. Perhaps the Septims were targeted for extinction by the gods? Or perhaps it was a game design choice meant to create an improbable, but simple to understand black and white scenario to motivate the player. Personally, I was wondering if the lore dealt with this apparent (long term) death of a family line in any detail, it seems at least for now it does not.

This time, I was able to chat in game with Ocato and do more research into the political system at least present in-game, and it does indeed seem that Ocato is a defacto and not a "legal" sovereign. Everyone seems to believe he's the leader and apparently the legions would (in theory) obey his commands, but nothing in game indicates he is anything more than a place holder until a better alternative can be found. He did also mention an "Inner Council" directing affairs of state during the Oblivion Crisis, since apparently the actual Elder Council had disbanded and returned to their provinces of origin. An understandable abdication of their responsibilities to the body politic if they believe the world is going to end in short order. It also, to me anyway, indicates a total obliteration of the cohesion of the state, that the people most in touch with the center of power would flee to their homes rather than attempt to direct the defense of the realm from a central location. It's quite obvious that we're supposed to take from this that the Empire is dying, but still these things interest me. It's a classic "What were they thinking" question that probably doesn't have a concrete answer. Tamriel may not even select another Emperor considering what's happened, perhaps Ocato will become some kind of Stewart to a half-dead State, slowly overseeing the decay and disappearance of what was the Imperial prerogative to rule. If the Septim line was indeed directed by the gods and assumed to continue by divine right in a very real sense, these people are likely in no way prepared to order their own political affairs. I'll be exceedingly surprised if a massive war does NOT erupt in the near future, give the newly created power vacuum.

At any rate, to me anyway, the writers DO seem to be asking me (and really everyone else) to take some big leaps of faith in how things played out during TES IV. I don't mind, so long as there are some in-universe rationale for why things happened the way they did. Even if those reasons are outlandish, having some ground to stand on is better than none at all. Or, perhaps I'm just not informed enough to see the bigger picture. I suppose it will remain an open question at least for the next few years, I do hope the next installment fleshes out the consequences and the realities of the Empire a bit more satisfactorily. Thanks for the good replies so far.

I recall Proweler saying that Oblivion's plot has more predestination in it than Morrowind's, which revolves around a dozen prophecies and the prescient sermons of gods.

The Oblivion Crisis just happened that way, not the least because Oblivion was written and took place in a vacuum where the rest of Tamriel and history itself were strikingly absent. You can look for in-world reasons, but no on wants to take them seriously.

Good thoughts there. Lacking some official input, or someone pointing out something we've missed, it seems that there's a significant amount of developer oversight here.

Having given it more thought, however, this might be the beginning of an answer.

On the death of an emperor with no one in place to officially take the throne, it's plausible that the Elder Council would take power during the interregnum. Due to the specific nature of the threat posed by Mankar and the Mythic Dawn Cult, however, only a certain type of person, equipped with the Amulet of Kings, would be able to do what was necessary to stop the invasion. Having said that, it's possible - and I realize this is a long shot - that there is a system set in place to deal with contigencies like the assassination of an emperor, beginning with the Elder Council, and possibly extending past that. But, due to the specific nature of the circumstances, none of those persons were properly equipped to deal with the Oblivion crisis. It had to be Martin.

And no, that doesn't excuse the fact that the game provides scarce information about what would happen in the case of the untimely death of an emperor without the danger of an invasion from Oblivion (although there is http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/brief_history_empire.shtml). But, it does explain why none of those other people warranted overt mention to someone simply playing the game as, well, a game. Of course, there really should have been some relevant background information available for those who looked for it.



I get the impression that a lot of people feel this way, and there's certainly some truth to it.

But, out of my love for the world, I would like, if at all possible, to make it work. Grab your hammers.

I do that for the Amulet/Tower/Dragonfires triumverate, hell, even http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=803153&hl= but no way am I apologizing for the family life of politicians.

I recall reading that awhile back. Read it again - it's very good. And you point out, rightly enough, that Cyrodiil was attenuating as a center of political power even without the Oblivion invasion.

Having said that, while searching TIL for more information on the Elder Council, I stumbled across http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/piner_letters.shtml. From the final note:


Please don't worry. The Elder Council knows what it is doing. Uriel was an old man. They knew he wouldn't live forever, and I'm sure they had plans for the succession. Of course, now with the three princes dead, it's not clear who will be the next emperor, but it's happened before -- there are precedents, I'm sure -- and anyway, Ocato and the Council have been running the Empire for the past 15 years anyway. So there's nothing to worry about. Everything will be fine.


It's not much, I realize, but it means the developers at least recognized the issue.

Yes, but all past emperors had to be Septim. Now with the amulet destroyed during what Martin did, Mehrunes Dagon is, according to Ocato, forever "sealed" away, or rather his gates away. And he can no longer torture Tamriel. So, no longer is it needed for a Septim or royal blood, they can allow someone else, whoever it may be.

In this event, it is my belief there are no precedents to prepare for this, not that it means it's a bad thing. It's never happened to where they don't need a Septim. Heck, the council could become the leader in the future, being a Parliament, so to speak, with the Emperor being simply a figure head.

Well, the unique nature of the Oblivion crisis would explain why there was no precedent for it.

However, I've linked to http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/brief_history_empire.shtml twice in this thread already. It's a fairly short read, and should be fairly helpful for anyone concerned about the issue of imperial succession, Septim bloodlines, etc. I'll quote a (and certainly not the only) relevant portion, because I'm not sure people are reading it:

This is from the end of Volume I.

The story of Kintyra II, heiress to her father Antiochus' throne, is certainly one of the saddest tales in imperial history. Her first cousin Uriel, son of Queen Potema of Solitude, accused Kintyra of being a bastard, alluding to the infamous decadence of the Imperial City during her father's reign. When this accusation failed to stop her coronation, Uriel bought the support of several disgruntled kings of High Rock, Skyrim, and Morrowind, and with Queen Potema's assistance, he coordinated three attacks on the Septim Empire.

The first attack occurred in the Iliac Bay region, which separates High Rock and Hammerfell. Kintyra's entourage was massacred and the Empress taken captive. For two years, Kintyra II languished in an Imperial prison believed to be somewhere in Glenpoint or Glenmoril before she was slain in her cell under mysterious circumstances. The second attack was on a series of Imperial garrisons along the coastal Morrowind islands. The Empress' consort Kontin Arynx fell defending the forts. The third and final attack was a siege of the Imperial City itself, occurring after the Elder Council had split up the army to attack western High Rock and eastern Morrowind. The weakened government had little defence against Uriel's determined aggression, and capitulated after only a fortnight of resistance. Uriel took the throne that same evening and proclaimed himself Uriel III, Emperor of Tamriel. The year was 3E 121. Thus began the War of the Red Diamond, described in Volume II of this series.

And this is from the beginning of Volume II.

Volume I of this series described in brief the lives of the first eight Emperors of the Septim Dynasty, beginning with the glorious Tiber Septim and ending with his great, great, great, great, grandniece Kintyra II. Kintyra's murder in Glenpoint while in captivity is considered by some to be the end of the pure strain of Septim blood in the imperial family. Certainly it marks the end of something significant.

Uriel III not only proclaimed himself Emperor of Tamriel, but also Uriel Septim III, taking the eminent surname as a title. In truth, his surname was Mantiarco from his father's line. In time, Uriel III was deposed and his crimes reviled, but the tradition of taking the name Septim as a title for the Emperor of Tamriel did not die with him.

Oh, and Kintyra II is not the only Septim who meets with an untimely death, according to that series.

Nope, he was three guys. Tiber Septim, however, was some boy from high rock who rode the coat tails of a demi-god.

http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/wulfharthsongs.shtml

http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/arcturian.shtml

For the love of the world!

Here are a few thoughts of mine. There are two important things - in my opinion - to consider regarding the Emperor (Alessian-line, Reman-line, Septim-line or otherwise,). Being Emperor is a political role and it is a mythical position (with all the consequences involved). I think that both should, even must, be considered together.
Example: Even if Ocato proclaimed himself Emperor, he could not replace Martin's role. He may have been Emperor in name, but not in mythical scale. I remember someone saying a long time ago "the Elder Council may be able to govern, but it is not able to rule". I think that says a lot. The Elder Council might be able to more or less run the Empire (as it has done before), but it would still need an Emperor to rule, as a symbol and as a mythical figure (Dragonfires, bond to the mythical Alessian bloodline, etc.). As to the mythical figure: syronj already said some key words here: Mandate of Heaven. Earn it to get it.

To sum it up - even if there was some kind of contingency plan, it would need a true and able (!. see above) Emperor to restore the mythical aspect of the Emperor - and not just the political. What's good in being able to govern an Empire but seeing it literally go to hell and not having any means to stop it? The three official heirs Geldall, Enmen and Ebel were assassinated at the same time as Uriel VII. I don't think we won't ever know whether they "had what it takes", but that is a moot point. They're dead. In comes Martin, who was able, but also had to be pushed (by CHIMtervention)

There are some holes in history where there was no Emperor (before Reman came and before Septim). While those are to be reported as quite troublesome times, there are no reports on a large-scale daedric invasion such as it happened recently. As to why such an invasion did not (could not) happen earlier, I've made some thoughts a while ago:
http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/nalionarticle2.shtml
It talks a lot about towers, but in essence - "in days of yonder, there were other mythical forces (anon guardians), who were able to "maintain the barrier", in the absence of an Emperor". These guardians, however, were subsequently "removed" in the one or other way, leading to the events we all know about.

The issue is that, after Martin's sacrifice, I don't think we need a Heavenly mandate for the next leader. I think this is what he meant by the statement that we would be the scribes of the next Elder Scroll. Mankind had to more or less figure stuff out on their own. I wouldn't be surprised if the ruler of the Empire took on a fare more political lean, though it'd be interesting to see Aedra and Daedra attempting to push their interests onto the throne.

Agreed. Martin changed a lot. My above post refers to the time up until Martin came and did his thing.


Far too speculative (and dangerous) for me to go out on a tangent of what could happen! I'm on the "wait and see"-side of things, but keep my ears tuned for rumours. One thing though - I think, in a way, "WE" already kinda were the ones who took part in writing the Elder Scrolls.

Not every place can have exciting politics unfortunately. Morrowind, for example, had a long history of House Wars and legal assassinations, with power constantly shifting between the Houses. Cyrodiil, on the other hand, is in the center of the Empire, and has been "tamed" for quite some time. It's understandable considering that Morrowind-style power struggles in Cyrodiil would have significant impacts on the rest of the Empire and done enough, would collapse it rather quickly. And given the Daedric invasion and the whole Amulet of Kings trouble, only someone who can wear the amulet will have any hope of being accepted as the ruler of Cyrodiil.

The Chancellor is the voice for the Elder Council. He doesn't hold any greater power, he's just the face the people see should there be no one left to take up the throne. In the event that an heir couldn't be found, he'd hold some power and maybe even be given the crown himself. It's not so complicated so let's not make it any more difficult than it already isn't...
And I'd never compare the ES universe to that of ours. Although the concept is similar, the level of possiblity in the ES world IS complicated.
I mean, we get hurricanes and tornados every now and again, but in ES they have Dragon Breaks, two sets of deities, Redguards splitting islands with swords, reincarnated saints roaming around killing god-like wizards, and blue-grey skinned elves with red eyes walking about with grimaces.