The question that most intriques me, at the moment, is the degree to which Tamriel is protected from mythic turbulence. Previously the Star-Crowned Emperor provided that protection, but that age is over with. Did Martin Septim's sacrifice create an enduring barrior between this world and Oblivion? If not, then who or what keeps the balance now?

My prediction is that we're going to get a new perspective on the nature of the Aedra and Daedra fairly soon, and a new perspective on what the empire actually was.

The pertinent question, at the end of the day, is, of course, this: after the Oblivion invasion was over, who won?

Considering that Mehrunes Dagon lost, but the future of the Empire is very uncertain, I'd say it was a pyrrhic victory for Tamriel.

Or as Lord Rugdumph Gro-Shurgak would say, a phallic victory.

It seems to me that there was definitely a tie of sorts.

The Daeadra(or a Daedric Prince, as I think we can rarely lump Daedric interests together) got a major upper hand, and a major sacrifice had to be made on the human and Aedra side of the conflict. It seems like the Aedra have lost a connection to the throne, which more or less knocks the "Good" or "Stasis" gods out of their comfortable role.

I'm not completely sure, but I feel that the Oblivion crisis(or, rather, the Deadlands crisis) was an overall win for Dagon and Daedric interests as a whole. While they are more permanently sealed, or more effectively sealed, than ever before....the Aedra's contract has been tossed out for whatever new order may come.

After the Oblivion crisis, the Daedric Shrines still work. They can still have an effect on the world. I feel that we haven't seen the last enterprising Daedric Prince step onto the stage in some way. Possibly, hopefully, in a more subtle and intriguing way.

It would be most unwise to restrict ourselves in whom or what we consider as a candidate for the victor. A past rivalry, hatred, or war should be no more forgotten than the dragon beneath your feet. It may still have fire in its soul. http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/complete_dragonbroke.shtml, though whether they acted rightly is difficult to discern from where we now stand, recalling the past and looking forward, with uncertain minds, towards the future.

Keep in mind that it's a game...
Some things can't change not because it has anything to do with lore, just so the gamers will keep gaming.

Nalion pretty much summed up the mythic repercussions of the Oblivion Crisis (and, as a consequence, TES IV's plot) very well..the problem, of course, is that we only have that because of MK. If it wasn't for MK's post-Oblivion posturing about Akatosh-as-Lorkhan, the Septim succession, and the nature of the Amulet of Kings, then there wouldn't be any of that juicy backstory; as Oblivion stands by itself, the plot simply resolves itself without consequence.

Think about it: no political repercussions for the Daedric invasion, no opinions from the other Daedric Princes, no conflict of cultures, no betrayals, no resistance against Martin's claim to the throne -- nothing! Everyone in the Empire seemed happy to just watch their entire power structure collapse and, as shown by the final conversation with Ocato that somebody posted on the last page, don't even seem to care who rises to power next.

Thus, that there is no interregnum in Tamriel is less because of the political stability of the setting and more about the neglect of the writers. Thankfully, as Nalion and others pointed out, we did end up with something, so at least TES IV ended up meaning something in the grander scheme of the TES metaplot.

To be fair, the other Daedra never did seem to care about Mehrunes Dagon's plots to ravage Tamriel before.

While it is true that normally many would try to get the throne in the event of the near-destruction of a regime, the crisis itself presented a situation where political intrigue was a luxury that they could not afford, and they all knew that only someone wearing the Amulet of Kings could not only stop the Daedra but make a reasonable claim to the throne. And therefore they understood that Martin was the only choice they had.

It's as if the citizens of Cyrodiil are in denial about the seriousness of their situation. I wonder how long before provinces such as Morrowind realize that they're virtually on their own.

"They" didn't understand anything because they didn't exist. I'm not saying that they weren't represented in-game, I'm saying that the people who made the game didn't seem to imagine any of them.

Given the rumors abound in Ebonheart during TES III, I'd say that it's probably hit most of them by now.

Those rumors were jettisoned. If only someone in Ebonheart had realized that the only 'simulacrum' around was Helseth.

It may have been a false alarm in TES III, but there's no mistaking the problems when the Emperor and his sons are murdered and Oblivion gates open up. Even the Count of Leyawiin was convinced that they (Leyawiin) were on their own, and that was in Cyrodiil.

I think this is slightly unfair. Without explicit knowledge of what developer contributed what to Oblivion, you can't legitimately make the claim that the main plot was inconsequential lacking Kirkbride's input. Several aspects of the main storyline are imbued with lore: the relation between the empire to the emperor, and the relation of the emperor and the empire to the divines, were both fleshed out (albiet incompletely) in the main storyline. And the "inconsequential conclusion" of the main plot - the "empire" being without an emperor (who's significance the player has been provided some understanding of through the plot, despite its lack of importance for lore), was certainly not without significance. Martin-playing-dragon against Dagon, that is not insignificant. There no longer being an emperor, that is not insignificant.

Remember in Morrowind when ash storms caused a supply train to get lost, preventing food from getting to Maar Gan, leading to fear of starvation? Remember when Imperial Legion troops were sent in to qualm fears of Sixth House activity? Neither do I. Honestly, I think Cyrodiil would have been much better if it has been a jungle, and if the Green Emperor way were lined with the heads of past emperors. I also would have liked it if Cyrodiil had enough farms to support is population. But then, realistically we should have also seen merchants traveling between cities in Vvardenfell.

I disagree; it's not common knowledge or common sense. Not too many people know that much about royal history and how it runs. It's not extra research; it's more along the lines of understanding how a system works. Not every royal court runs the exact same way but that should not matter, what should matter is it gives you a certain reference point of where to start, what you can do to spice things up and where to end it all.

The problem I have with Bethesda format on the royal court is poor at best, I can see where they were going, but in the end it just doesn't work and it points to me as though no research was done. I feel as though they just made it up as they went along assuming it could be believed that this system does in fact makes sense. Once you clear away the spots on the glass (so to speak) you start to see a clear picture of what a slop job this was done. This may have looked good on paper (to them) but once you implement it in the game (as their history), it just doesn't work.






True, they were depending on a Septium to light the dragon fires but there are issues with that as well. For one thing no royal court depended on much of anything and they were proven wrong and corrected the mistake(s). You learn that mistakes were made but nothing was done to prevent them from happening again, it's all base around assumption. If every royal court in this world depended on assumption instead of correcting their mistakes, the royal lines would have died out many years ago.

But there was no back-up plan with this empire at all, there was not one person saying that they should not continue to depend on some amulet to ensure the empires safety, because after all it is important, is it not? This shows complete and totally disorganization and in hind-sight the stupidity of this royal lore line. And going beyond that these sons of Uriel Septium the oldest one was in his late 50s. You mean to tell me he was not married yet and had little ones of his own? If this amulet was so important every single precaution would have been taken to ensure it continues, but there were no precautions taken, just the same mistakes over and over again. Why preach about it be so important to ensure the line continues and the fires stay lit? Yet they do nothing about it and assume the solution is to hide in the tunnels under the prison.






And if you listen to the ending of Martin's words it's sounds as though you are the one to take the throne, but again, High Hair Elf just stands there twiddling his thumbs like he is completely doped up on Skooma and spaced out. And going beyond that all that needed to be done it seems to seal the gates forever was smashing the amulet. So why the hell didn't Uriel Septium hand the amulet over to a trusted person and just smash the damn thing? The dependency would have been severed, a new heir could have been placed on the throne, of any bloodline and the threat of Oblivion would have been gone.


What the writers did was have a climix for a story that did not need to be there and made no sense at all. They only needed Martin to do this simply because it was planned from the start and it did not matter if there were holes within the start, middle or the end of the story. They wanted to get to the end with this huge climix and they did not bother to fully understand or take the time to comprehend of how little of it made any sense.






IF these fires were so damn important, Uriel could have sent an army to get his son from Kvatch and drag him back to the palace and the line would have went on. Or how about the player being able to hold on to the amulet, get Martin and go straight to the Temple of the One. These are two clear cut ways this so called lore story could have ended with making sense. But the thing is if there was sense within the lines of this royal lore story line, the people behind Bethesda would not have had their climatic ending-they wanted.

Any of the other heirs could have done what Martin did in the end. All Martin came out to be was not a hero but a walking plot convenience. This would explain why there was no mention of Uriel's wife, why Uriel's sons had no children and more so why there is no mention of Uriel having brothers, sisters, cousins, Uncles, Aunts Etc. The writers needed this lore to be this way, to get the ending they wanted and did not care for how poorly it actually came together. I'm the type of person to where I like to see a story come together as a whole and not be left with the bitter taste in my mouth afterwards trying to understand the logic within something that has no logic.


And since we are on this royal line, why did Mankar Cameron just suddenly pop up out of nowhere and choose to do this now? We have very little information about him, no information on why he is able to wear the amulet of kings (aside from the odd information on Wiki). This just coincides with the fact that as the royal lore is thrown together so is the main story line, it is a complete and total train wreck of gibberish and only at times are you able to understand what is being said and what is going on.

I don't know, but, unlike the majority, I feel it is well-put together and get the feeling people under-estimate them, immensely.




No, there wasn't a spoken back-up. But we're neither the council nor the Emperor, so, behind the scenes, we know nothing.

We cannot expect every person to believe in the legends and lore in the TES world. Maybe the children of Uriel didn't believe it, so they did not see the urgency in creating a family. And we can't expect everyone to be married and have children. Many real royal bloods have died because they didn't reproduce. Even if in the event they did, the sons were murdered. So it is safe to assume the families, if existent, were killed, as well. Not including, the Mythic Dawn had powers granted by Dagon and MC. So to say the Legion should have protected them is lacking, in the least. Wave after wave of powerful assassins will break through eventually. And being the princes they were, it was most likely mandate to protect them. Because an assassin gets through and kills them is no damning evidence to say they (Empire) did not do their job.

They were not hiding in the tunnels. They were taking a secret escape route, trying to, what else, but escape. And who is to say every single precaution wasn't taken? We, as the player, do not know. There is no mention of things behind the walls which we cannot see, or what happened in closed chambers of the Emperor and the council. We simply don't know and it's ignorant to assume they didn't do anything.




Only the blood of a Septim would work, that's why Martin could do it and no one else. It's why you, the player, could not wear the magical amulet. It is why the Emperors had always been of that blood. Uriel couldn't give it to someone he trusted, no matter how trusting he was or how good they were. Not even the most pure of heart. It had to be a Septim. And Martin was the last one.

People keep saying there's so many holes. Either they're putting holes or missing the points. As for myself, I see how it all connects, and I put all the pieces together. If, in the end it is speculation on my part, then it's a pretty darn good guess for me.

What holes are you speaking of, though, to satisfy your rant? Provide examples.



Martin said, in the end, that he had an idea and did not know if it would work. And only he, a stern practitioner of daedric and etc magic, could know things no other Septim could regarding the amulet and etc. I mean, he's the one who helped you to the Paradise. And no other Septim probably would sacrifice himself like that. No one knew it was possible, either, to do what Martin did in the end. Everyone just thought it could only be used to light the fires.

You say no logic, I see logic. You see a broken story, I see a completed puzzle. Maybe your puzzle is just missing it's pieces. I, too, like to see a story come together. I saw it, and loved it. It all made perfect sense to me. But may I just see the bigger picture or something, idk.



MC it seems didn't suddenly pop up. It seems this has been a life-long secret organization idea practiced by him, as to perhaps finish what his presumed father didn't. He had plans, he developed ways for things, it is methodical, planned-out.

No one knows, save for the Devs perhaps, why MC could wear the Amulet. This is perhaps the only thing of sense, imo, that you've said in all of the post. It definitely changes things. But, maybe we'll find out in TESV or something. Don't get so angry, really. It'll all eventually come out in the end.

Why Mankar Camoran was able to wear the amulet was answered in the Knights of the Nine Expansion:

http://www.imperial-library.info/tsoo/kotn01a.shtml

Besides, the Septim line had already been broken anyways.

Anyways, unless somewhat can provide a better answer: Martin was the only person equipped to deal with the specific problem faced by the empire at the time, so even if there were other claimants to the throne, they couldn't do anything about it. Now, as per the question of why, in-game, no one overtly tried to do anything about it, that's a fair question. It's reasonably to suspect that the Elder Council had taken over as rulers of the Empire during the interegnum, and they also had the blades tracking down the Mythic Dawn Cult and working on those Oblivion gates.

There's a certain amount of irony (in the literary sense) at work here. Remember that you, the player, know about the Mythic Dawn, Mankar Camoran, Martin Septim, etc. It would be a mistake to assume too fast what other people in Cyrodiil know about all of this. The average person may be thinking something akin to: Emperor's have been assassinated before. This is an unfortunate event, but not something without precedent. And the Elder Council may have been thinking: the Emperor's been assassinated, but we're equipped to rule the empire until a new emperor can be found, and we've got the blades working on dealing with the Oblivion gates. Don't presume everyone's operating off of the same knowledge that you are.

I'm not saying that answer is completely satisfactory (it's not); Oblivion has it's shortcomings, but at some point the expectations that it failed to meet are simply ridiculous. And also recall in Morrowind all the would-be heroes venturing up the slopes of Red Mountain to deal with Dagoth Ur, since nobody else but some N'wah prisoner seemed to be doing anything about the recent rise of Sixth House activity.

Another good post. I haven't played the KOTN expansion yet, but I wonder if Alessia would really want this; or if this is only her followers using her. I guess we'll never know what she would want at this start of the Fourth Era. Granted, she freed the humans in her day, but it reminds me of the saying (from the James Stewart movie, "Fool's Parade") that "God uses the good ones, and the bad ones use God."

Forgive me, but could you explain the MC part instead of the excerpt? I'm not understanding the relation. (Not saying there isn't one. I just don't know what to look for.)

Sure thing.

What I'm doing is looking at the prophet's speech and inferring things relevant to Mankar Camoran from it.

The part of the prophet's speech that I quoted refers to the state of things just after the events of Oblivion. The Oblivion invasion has been dealt with, the emperial throne stands empty, etc.

The Al-Esh is near! Mother of the Empire! She weeps for fallen Cyrod and all her children that call it home for truly she is the mother to us all! Citizens, the Queen of Stars asks you: where is her issue? Where are the men who can walk in her steps? In whose blood has the dragon taken purchase? Alessia! Reman! Talos! They cry for blood akin to theirs to rekindle the dragonpact!

This bit basically says the empire has fallen (confirming what had already been suggested at the end of Oblivion), and asks what next? Alessia, Reman, and Talos, are all mythical/historical figures that have led the empire. The section I bolded refers to the notion that a certain bloodline is required to keep the empire going, which would include, for example, lighting the dragon fires.

Citizens, take to your knives! Are there no ears to hear the warnings? Are there no eyes to witness the Wheel's breaking?You pore over your dusty tomes of lore. You study ancient genealogies and bloodlines. Look you to blood for truth? There is truth in blood, but it is not the truth that you seek! The truth is written in the blood of the innocent, there in the Chapel of Love! Can you not read the ancient runes? "As oiobala Umarile, Ehlnada racuvar!" A curse and a threat to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear! Are there are any among you who still understand the ancient tongue? "By the eternal power of Umaril, the mortal gods shall be cast down."

This bit is basically the Prophet warning people to open their eyes and look at what's really going on. The world as we know it (the empire) is falling a part. The bolded portion refers to the idea that in order to secure the future safety of the empire and/or Tamriel, scholars are studying geneologies to find who has the closest blood-relation to the Septims to be a proper emperor. The point the prophet is making, however, is that it's not about the individual's parentage. What's important is a person's ability to deal with the dire situations of the time.

By implication then, since Mankar Camoran was able to wear the Amulet of Kings, it suggest that he was one of the people with "the right stuff," so to speak. Personally, I think "the right stuff" Camoran has includes, along with his mythical tamperings, his ancestral connections to early merish rulers. Remember that the empire of man was not the first political power in Tamriel.

Mankar also declared independence, killed his mother, and gave birth to himself, which was a whole new world of himself.

I presume you're refering to the Commentaries (plus, probably, accounts of Mankar's realm)?

I was never sure how much Mankar really understood what he was saying, and how much he actually achieved any of it. My impression was that Mankar was attempting something (and I don't think he fully understood what he was attempting), and a lot of his message was about something that would happen, and not something that had already occured: "Now I sit and wait to feast with thee on all the worlds of this cosmos. Nu-mantia! Liberty!" He ain't feasting yet. That was my take, at least. :shrug:

Anyways, I took the first paragraph of the Mythic Dawn Commentaries to be about seperation anxiety and one's effort to establish an individual identity.

Your first sentence doesn't make any sense. If you create a story to draw people within the realm you want them to unlock their imagination and believe this story can be believable but this story does not have this effect. And again you're based clearly on speculation and assuming this may have been the case. But there is no evidence to support your claims. You are using your own speculation and assumptions to try and draw in some form of logic; all I feel from you is the sense you cannot seem to understand it yourself so you start throwing things out there hoping that since the game doesn't explain this perhaps your speculations will help illuminate the reasons of who, what and why.


You assume yet again about the assassins' coming in wave after wave to attack people. I disagree with this; assassins' tend to work alone on their certain objectives. When Uriel was in the tunnels it was a simple distraction to allow the assassin to carry out his mission. Now if Uriel was to stay within the palace walls protection of the emperor would have been handled with more ability to stop the assassins', since after all the assassins' in the past have executed an emperor. With the logic of knowing that since an emperor was assassinated before, you would believe that better preparation and caution within their actions would be taken.


A good example is when JFK was shot in November 22, 1963. Shortly after his assassination more precautions were taken to make sure that this would not happen again, one of the major ones was not to allow a president to be in an open vehicle. Hell they just commissioned a new limo for Obama with state of the art equipment and nicknamed the new limo "The Beast." From the times of Lincoln being assassination, to McKinley, JFK and the attempt on Regan in the 80s, more and more precautions were taken to ensure these assassins do not win. But you see none of those precautions being taking, and I feel as though it's more along the lines the Empire does not care. They preach about how important it is to ensure the dragon fires stay lit but nothing is executed to make sure this carries on.





Once again delusions' sets in and the pale glass becomes a haze of mist. If it was a secret escape route, how would the assassins know about it? How would they know the exact route the emperor was taking? How would they know the exact moment he was to enter them and thus being in the exact same position for the assassin to strike? I do not believe the ignorance is on my end. The ignorance of this whole debate is the fact that I see people trying to make sense out of something that doesn't make any sense. Furthermore I find it hard to believe an emperor would just go cower in a corner and run away from the situation at hand.


His trip from the Royal Palace to the Imperial Prison, you are lead to believe that not one assassin tried to attempt on removing the emperor then. They probably didn't, because there were too many guards around, they waited for the right moment. But if the assassins could not carry out the plan then, why not just stay in the Imperial Palace where it is safe and command your troops from the safety of the walls to eliminate the assassins? Of course you do not see this journey taking place from the Imperial Palace to the Imperial Prison simply because you are in jail. But if you take a step back examine it, I for one, tend to come up with questions as I just mentioned-hence the confusing and coming out with these so called holes in the story.


The problem I have with the lore of the main story is the fact you are to believe this is some grand emperor that commanded legions of troops, but in the end just subjects himself to the dreams and meets the end. He knows that if the dragon fires are not lit, the kingdom goes into darkness, so why in the hell would you go along with the dream you had and just meet your death? If I had a dream I was going to die, I certainly would not just go along with it, considering the fact the empires survival is dependent on the this line. I could have easily came up with an alternative plan to either make the dragon fires stay lit or come up with a back-up to perhaps start a new line.

If you were a person who went out and bought a book on lore of The Elder of the Scrolls and this book was telling the tale of how the main quest was played out and you did not know anything about The Elder of the Scrolls, you honestly believe someone would walk away filling fulfilled and understood it? I doubt it. There is no mention of things behind the walls that players can see, it is indeed up to the Royal Court to know where most things are-yes, but isn't it up to the writers to insure that if you are the person looking in they should be able to understand what is going on without having to back track and try to sift through the ashes to find the logic that should have been there from the start?





People are saying there are holes in the main story line because there are holes with the main story line. All you are doing is trying hard to fill in the holes with your own speculations and assumptions about what could have happened, or might have happened. I don't care about what could have happened or what might have happened, I care about getting the full story as if I am reading this as a book in full vision played out, wanting to understand a good portion of what is going on without having to sift through Wiki to find the answers I seek. The main story line should be played out in most cases as if someone knows nothing about The Elder of the Scrolls. They should be given clear cut answers, instead of a cookie cutter job.





Rant? I am not ranting more along the lines of speaking my opinions from my view points. If I was ranting I would be using a lot more swear words and making little sense in my statements, but there is logic within my opinions it's up to you to decide if you see what I see as so many others do or continue down the path of being something that is not. It would take some time to go in to detail of what holes, but I have provided some already. And if I was to interpret my points of view using logic from other lore's or the root of history, there would be no point because all I would receive is more speculation as if I am on a dig sight with a recently unearthed new dinosaur and now we are having a spot of tea and trying to have a debate about what it is or was.







I am not angry, I am simply sitting here writing and having a discussion, trust me if I was pissed off, I probably be using the f word a lot and calling you names. I do believe in having a rational discussion on matters we do not see eye to eye. I am not trying to "convert" people to see what I see, all I am trying to do as a writer is to point out the mistakes I see within the main story line and the royal line.


I noticed some one said that the reason why Mankar Cameron is able to wear the amulet is explained in the Knights of the Nine-poor choice on the writers' part again. If you have this massive story and something happens or you see something happening, it could have been added within the main story to allow a clear cut way of understand what is going on. I should not have to get a Plug-in to seek answers. Why? Because not everyone is able to afford or even access this Plug-in. Why should I have to seek out an answer to a question that could have been answered in the main story line? It's almost as if the writers made an "OOPS" and realized they forgotten something within the story and had to cram it in somewhere else.

My point is have the answers when you are part of the story not answers buried somewhere else.

Some of the issues you raise about Uriel's assassination are legitimate. One does wonder why Uriel was ushered outside of the imperial palace (presumably the safest place he could be), and into the dungeons. That said, there are certainly situations in which the emperor might want to take advantage of an escape route. Was this the kind of situation which called for that response? Well, it's hard to say without knowing more about what was happening that led to Uriel making his way towards the backdoor. Did the developers leave some missing elements here? Almost certainly yes. Does it require some suspension of disbelieve on the part of the player? Yes. Is it absurdly implausible? I don't think so.

As for the emperor simply accepting his death (as fortold in his dream); you wouldn't accept you're own death so nonchalantly, fine, good for you. You're not the emperor. At issue is whether someone in Uriel's position, with Uriel's background, could believably be expected to act as Uriel did. Accepting one's end isn't unbelievable: both Socrates and Jesus did it (not intending to start a discussion on religion).

Having said that, I would like to say that one of our main points of disagreement is how explicit we each think a good story should be. Personally, I prefer a story in which not everything is explicitly explained, in which not everything that happens is obvious. I prefer a story that requires the reader/listener/etc to try to figure out what's going on for themselves. I prefer a story in which the reader might be mistaken about what's going on. In a good story everything will have an explanation (within reason), but a bad story can have an explanation for everything as well; the difference (well, one of them) is that a good story doesn't always do the explaining for you.

I don't know what the problem is with the Mythic Dawn knowing of the secret passageway. I mean, they're in direct contact with a GOD, after all.

Not direct, Mankar is the one in "direct" contact with him.