There's just as much evidence about my speculation to support it as there is for your side. You, as well, are using speculation and assumption in the fact you don't believe it was put together, so you try to put holes in it where it doesn't make sense to you. Just because it doesn't make sense to you does not mean it won't for someone else.

And no, I do understand the whole, as you claim you understand the holes. I don't think hard on how it works together for me, it simply does. So, no, I don't throw things out there. And, unless the topic is extremely small in detail, I do not use speculation. Again, you see holes, I see the whole. We're at an impasse.




Actually, that's like the first time I ever saw "waves and waves of assassins." Not a single Mystic Dawn assassin was in the tunnel, but waves and groups. And they know the guard would be with him. SO it makes sense they would try to overwhelm the guard with #s of people and #s of attacks. Basic strategy, it is. And, as I said before, We Do Not Know What Happened Before The Prison Scene. Preparations were taken, indeed. And, surely, Uriel and the Blades believed their last chance was the escape route. And, surely, they would not go to escape from some phantom. So Surely Something Must Have Happened That Caused Them To Think To Hide The Emperor In A Secret Place. AKA the place(s) they were last did not seem safe because it most likely was attacked, too. You don't rush Uriel to safety unless something happen.



You do not see all the precaution taken because you are not in the game, nor are you part of the TES world. You're not going to see everything. Not even books say everything. It's just not logical to write absolutely everything, especially something trivial that doesn't add any effect in the game like the precautions to be taken. And, obviously, one of the precautions was an escape tunnel. Escape tunnels have been used by real life kings and queens when they were down on their options. They, too, had precautions. But, by and far, an escape route ensuring the absolute (presumed) safety is one of the best choices, especially if your enemy keeps coming.




There was only one route in the tunnel. And most likely they had help from MC or MD. They were in the sewers during a later quest, so it seems they may know the layout before-hand. They were, presumably, living in the sewers. The escape route led into the sewers. My take on the ignorance of this debate is that you are making holes because you don't see the whole picture. Again, we both have our opinions.

I find it easy to believe the emperor would cower in a corner for his safety, running away. When 9/11 happened, the President was sent to several hiding places. Oh, but no, that must not make sense to you, I guess. Hiding is a precaution if it protects the leader. Hiding increases the chance of survival. That's common sense in nature. They know the moment he was enter because, most likely, they were chasing him. It doesn't make sense from them to use an escape tunnel if there was nothing going on, right?





They would not hide the emperor if there was not a reason. And even if, in the end, they tried to hide him because of a premonition he had, it was most likely a good one, considering how it turned out (Exactly like he foresaw). I don't see any leads about him being attacked either way. But that doesn't mean he wasn't.

If someone cannot accomplish someone, what is that old saying they're told? Try, try, again? Yes. The assassins would eventually break in. And MC could possibly resurrect them and send them back, just meaning more assassins. And the assassins would find a way, they always find a way. I come up with questions, too. But I don't call them holes in the sense that, "OH! This means that nothing in the story is right, the writers messed up, they're stupid, they don't know how to write, etc." I simply take it as it is; to be information not needed to know because it is not relevant. (Even though, in this we're alike, I want to know everything. But we can't have everything we want, so it's no use to be selfish and then call people stupid for not giving us what we want.)




It was a premonition he had he would die. And, it wasn't just a dream or he wouldn't say you had your hand in it. And what're the chances you, the player, would be in the exact spot of the escape route? Obviously there is something behind all of it. And Uriel accepted the fact he would die. There's nothing wrong with it. Like Dumbkid says, just because you wouldn't accept it, doesn't mean someone else wouldn't. And, regardless if you tried to escape a premonition (Not a dream. Big difference, even though I believe Uriel used a dream, he describes it as a premonition), it would happen at some time. Surely you've seen movies about people trying to change the future after they saw a glimpse of it. The things always end up happening because they can't change the future. Uriel accepted this fate. Plain and simple, yes?

As for starting a new line, I'm interested in how you think it'd be done. (Seriously, I do.)




The writers are not writing a third-person story. They're writing a first-person. This means you won't know everything, because the story is being based on YOUR side of the story. You, the player, who is not omniscient, and who is not going to know everything. That's why they write books for the stuff. Because you are not all-knowing, and never will.




I try to fill in the "holes" you speak of, you try to make them bigger. I don't see holes, you do. Again, you're the player, not the writer. It is not your job, nor do you know what the writers are actually doing or planning. It is best for us to try to understand them, instead of calling them stupid.


You're not reading this as a book. You're playing a first-person view part in the story. Not the same thing. Want to read a book? Stop playing TES and read one. Tired of all the "Holes"? Stop playing TES and read a book which you claim "has no holes."




A rant doesn't have to use swear words. I never use curse-words, even when I rant. And, I believe, contrary to the definition, a rant can have sense in it's sentences.

I've been saying, and I will continue to - You say there ARE holes. I say there aren't. Just because you "see" them, doesn't mean I'm wrong. And just I don't see the, doesn't make you wrong. You see what you want to see, I see what I want to see. It's open to interpretation.

Your "holes" I have dismissed and provided logical explanations, but you persist that I am delusional. It's like an atheist asking a Christian or Jew to provide positive proof god exist, in which they do, but the atheist dismisses it because they were not really interested in hearing in the first place. They simply wanted to change the mind of the believer. (Not, not all atheists are the same, but, like they do with believers, they generalize us. I do the same to them. )





I am a writer, as well, but we cannot assume the role of another writer and point out mistakes in their story. It is not our story, and it's never going to happen the way we want it, as well. Just because we have our ideas on how things are handled doesn't mean it's the same for them.

"I noticed some one said that the reason why Mankar Cameron is able to wear the amulet is explained in the Knights of the Nine-poor choice on the writers' part again. If you have this massive story and something happens or you see something happening, it could have been added within the main story to allow a clear cut way of understand what is going on. I should not have to get a Plug-in to seek answers. Why? Because not everyone is able to afford or even access this Plug-in. Why should I have to seek out an answer to a question that could have been answered in the main story line? It's almost as if the writers made an "OOPS" and realized they forgotten something within the story and had to cram it in somewhere else. "

I, for one, am not sure about the MC/KotN part. The person provided a good example, but I don't know, it just doesn't explain it well enough for me. Or maybe I am still missing it. Most likely the latter. But in either case, it doesn't exactly explain to me how the person-specific amulet was worn by a non-family member. But that's just me. I don't dismiss it, though. I just don't understand it yet. I'm still keeping an open mind.

However, that being said, I don't see it as an "OOPS!" as you do. But, that aside, people do forget. And people make mistakes. And you seem angry, contrary to what you say, that you are not being told everything, and that none of it makes sense. (That's how I view your aggressive take on it. It may not be true, but, it is, again, my view.)

"My point is have the answers when you are part of the story not answers buried somewhere else."

I have no point. Or, rather, I've made too many that I've ran out of things to say.

He wasn't talking about "realism".



:facepalm:



The Septims are dead, and their empire/worldview is going too. It had to end somehow to advance the larger plot, and this was the way which was chosen.

Perhaps "realistic" was the wrong term to use. What I meant was that the economic workings of Vvardenfell were ultmately left unexplained, because of the lack of traders and goods being transported from city to city. If someone wanted a working understanding of the economy of Vvardenfell, this information would be sorely missed.

I understand the criticism that the assassination of the emperor and potential (and eventually actual) end of the empire didn't precipitate much adverse reaction from the populace, Ocato, etc. Honestly though, (and this my just reflect a place where my understanding of human nature differs from others), I imagine in a state of emergency like the one in Cyrodiil most people are going to wake up in the morning and go back to work. Most people's concern isn't going to be closing the Oblivion gates and saving the empire, but feeding their families and retaining, as much as possible, some semblance of a "normal" life. As for the rulers of the various cities, I would expect them to try to keep law and order in their cities; discussion of the crisis would happen behind closed doors. As for Ocato and the Elder Council, again, I suspect their concern would be maintaining law and order in the "empire." The Elder Council has had control of the empire before. Again, this might just reflect something idosyncratic in my view on human nature, but my expection would be, in a time of crisis, for most people to pass the real work of addressing the issue to someone else, and focus on their own problems. When empires fall, the people don't vanish, they're still raising families, they're still doing their jobs, they're still worshipping their gods.

Personally, I though the biggest weakness in the main storyline was shutting down the Oblivion gates outside of each city. You had already figured out how to shut them down after Kvatch, and I don't recall there being any indication that only you were able to shut down an Oblivion gate (though feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Closing those Oblivion gates was nothing but a ploy to pad a few more hours into the game. It would have been preferable (in my opinion), if your main quest obligation in each city required dealing with some political difficulty that had come about because of the assassination of the empire, the impending invasion, etc.

If that is so then could there be anc Orc on the Imperial Throne?

I've always assumed that any Nord invasion of Morrowind was doomed - but if the Nords are really serious about that and they make peace with the Bretons then the Breton Queen - half-sister of the King of Morrowind might decide to support another claim to the Imperial Throne - and the Ors have been living at peace within her borders for a long time - so would she then support a bid by the King of the Orcs?

That would put a mer (Orsimer) on the throne ... end of an Era indeed guys.

Mankar is their boss. The group is in direct contact. The assassins may not have been chatting it up with Dagon in the sewers, talking about their kids and Casual Fridays. But a simple demonic briefing before the mission would mean a bit. =p


Actually, I'm fine with the IDEA of the Oblivion Gates, and having to shut them down. But the fact is that each one was very similar. I would have preferred different locales for the Deadlands, or different kinds of quests. Sometimes there was a puzzle to the Oblivion Gates that I loved to solve the first time. I would have preferred more diverse quests within the gates. Perhaps talking with Dremoras, perhaps a riddle or a task, SOMETHING.

Puzzles?

Basically, figuring out how to get to the room in Tower A, when navigating Towers B and C. It wasn't much of a puzzle thing, but I'd like more of those...where intelligence on your part is more important than Intelligence in the character's stat screen. Or something. hell if I know. My love of Adventure games makes most of my video game opinions somewhat insane and unpopular.

Alot of interesting posts here. Only a couple of things I'd add. For me, I'm not upset that we're not given the "whole story" as it were, in terms of how and why things happened the way they did. I'm more intrigued by the TOTAL absence of any information relevant to the Septim Line, the political situation and what have you. Having inaccurate and incomplete information in a quasi-medieval type setting as we have in Oblivion would be expected and certainly not out of the ordinary. I guess for me its a matter of many issues simply being dropped entirely that kind of throws me for a loop. In response to a previous post, I find comparing works of fiction to actual history quite interesting. The writers for TES didn't just make Tamriel up in a vacuum, and at least for me its interesting to draw comparisons, no matter how useless they may be. I'm really not trying to split hairs here either. It's just curious, as I said, the kind of things that were dropped, when I feel they are relevant, if only in passing. The whole story seems, if I may say, unnecessarily streamlined. As though the developers wanted to avoid any unforeseen complications of detail, possibly due to time constraints or something else, I don't know.

Your points are well taken. I haven't played Oblivion for several months, and haven't touched the main quest in at least a year, so my memory isn't inviolate. The majority of what went on in the main quest made sense to me. This is probably due, in part, to my background knowledge of the lore. You mention the lack of information about the Septim line - I came to the game knowing about the origins of the empire in the 1st era, I came to the game knowing about the connections between the empire as a political entity and the empire as a reflection of divine order. Given such circumstances, it's difficult for me to objectively judge whether the "holes" in the main plot are significant or not.

It should be pointed out, though, that the relevant information was in the game, even if the player didn't explicitly encounter it when playing the main quest. You've got http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/life_uriel_septim.shtml, http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/brief_history_empire.shtml, and others. Sure, you could play the whole game without reading any of these, but, much of the relevant information is there. Now, should the developers have designed the main plot so that the player would expicitly come across that information? That's something of a subjective question, which depends on how much one believes the player (or reader, if we're talking about a story), should be "in the know."

I recall, not too long ago, the forums rife with debates over whether Vivec was really a god or not. There's a real answer to that question (yes), but the player could go through the Morrowind main quest and come to the conclusion that Vivec was a levitating fraud, and proceed, by way of Azura's Star, to make his soul a relic on his shelf. And just what, exactly, did happen to the Dwemer? In Morrowind, the stuff that didn't seem to be fully explained was the basis for a lot of interesting discussion. For some reason, whatever isn't fully explained in Oblivion seems to be a source of disappointment. Doubtless, people will object that the mysteries in Morrowind aren't comparable to the holes in Oblivion at all. Without knowing more explicitly where people find Oblivion's shortcomings to be, I can't begin to address this effectively (in some cases, I'm likely to agree about Oblivion's shortcomings).

Anyways, one of the things that most disappointed me in Oblivion were books like: http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/amulet_kings.shtml and http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/trials_st_alessia.shtml. Of course, both of these texts help explain some of the events of the main quest; however, I much prefer the way those aspects of the main quest are explained by http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/remanada.shtml.

If anything was disappointing about the main quest in Oblivion, it was how obvious everything was. If someone makes the charge that the plot of Oblivion was blatantly and unfortunately linear, then I agree entirely.

Sorry, but you seem to ignore the possibility that the people of Cyrodiil might be going through a phase of political apathy encouraged by their leaders?

This happens - look at the dismantling of the British Empire - where were the riots, where was the civil war? Nowhere - just one long sliiiide into oblivion created by people too egocentric to care about the effects this would have on both their own country and on the former 'provinces'. welcome to recession 2009

Which means, however, that the fans are also going through a developer-encourage phase of political apathy.

ummm, welll, ... :blink: - :ahhh: noooo - ahem :violin:

OH SNAP!



Isn't it sad how the only information the devs will likely salvage from all that work is that the Emperor is dead and Martin reestablished the Oblivion Mundus boundaries? So hilarious.

In response to Dumbkid, I might have been more specific in writing my response, in that I was referring almost entirely to the Main Quests seemingly one-dimensional linear progression devoid of distraction. I've assumed from the start that there were books that dealt with at least some of the questions I've had, but they appear to have no relevance to the main quest and can be easily overlooked. I, once again, must lament the fact that I could not have followed the series prior to Tribunal, that leaves alot of holes in my knowledge base that, if filled, could have made Oblivion's plot make more sense. But I'm certainly not the only one that has never laid eyes on a copy of Daggerfall, so I just wonder what the developers really had in mind by making the story so much of a foregone conclusion without any real twists and turns. Many people have called it a process of "dumbing down" but I can't say one way or another, I lack perspective over the 15 years of the franchise so I'm just let to speculate. Once TES V comes out that will give yet another basis for comparison, it will be interesting to see how it goes.

I understand what you're saying.

I agree the main quest of Oblivion was too linear. As I said in a previous post, I think the time spent shutting down the Oblivion Gates outside of towns would have been benefitted by adding something relating to the political situation in he respective town.

I disagree that background knowledge should have been explicitly provided during the main quest. I prefer it being in the background: available if you want to delve into it. That's mostly a subjective thing, though, and I can certainly see why someone would want that knowlege "up front." :shrug:

Regarding the charge (which has reared its head a few times in this thread) that Oblivion's main quest produces little to no obvious political repricusions, it seems to me that what we see in Oblivion is the only thing that we can realistically expect to see. We know Martin is dead, so the empire (in the sense of a political unit run by an emperor) is over. It's suggested (if I'm recollecting correctly) that the Elder Council will attempt to rule for at least awhile, which is wholly believable. Now, a number of questions obviously arise. Now that the empire is gone, how will relations between the provinces change? Now that the empire is gone, how will relations between the major cities in Cyrodiil change? Now that the empire has gone, how will the relations between men, mer, and betmer change? These are all important questions, but, I see no reason the answer should be clearly known at this point. To supply the player with such information so soon after the death of Martin Septim would be to bely the illusion of Tamriel as a world with an actual history. I don't recall knowing what the future political structure of Vvardenfell would be after Morrowind either, and there's no reason I should have known.

It occurs to me that Daggerfall might be proffered as a counter-example to what I just said. I'll concede the point, but not the victory. The political repricussions of Daggerfall were all magical (and time-distorting) in nature, whereas the ultimate political repricussions of the end of Oblivion will (unless something interesting happens to "speed things up" which is possible) depend on people acting at the speed of mortal history.

Those are good points by Dumbkid.

As an aside, I've been playing "Oblivion" for the first time this week and one of the Counts said an interesting thing: that Ocato wants to be emperor, but that he won't succeed. That's the first time I've heard an NPC say that Ocato has that ambition. This is before the Oblivion gates begin to open, at least in Cyrodiil.

Having to dig for it shouldn't require ignoring information that is handed out as the unshakable truth without any sort of hint that it isn't. It makes all information to the contrary seem like sloppy mistakes rather then intentional obfuscation. Especially when all this information comes from the previous games or out of game interviews and obscure texts.

It has to be brought in a style that make it clear the people are talking about religious dogma rather then providing the player with facts.

What exactly qualifies as"unshakeable truth"? It's not only fiction, but fiction with very poorly defined canon. That's the formula for retcons.

That? That doesn't matter. I was talking about the way the information is handed out. The whole plot revolves around the inability for anybody but a heir of the Dragon Throne to wear the the Amulet of Kings and Martin being the only heir available. This is reinforced by Baurus, Yauffre,and two loading screens that you'll see half a dozen times before you even get out of prison.

This is the sole reason for existence of the main quests. Without this there would be no point in anything you do. However this plot point is also intentionally wrong. Perhaps to lend more credence to Mankar Camoran, but it takes away the reason of existence from the main plot. So to summarize, it either is the unshakable truth or you never had any reason to play.

The rest of your comment just doesn't make sense.

Well, to clarify, TES canon isn't very well-established. We got ex-employees still writing TES stuff, various things are very different in each game, and Bethesda doesn't clarify what's what. Hence just about anything introduced will contradict something previous.

You still don't make sense because nothing you said relates to the delivery of the plot. There has been no retcon, it washttp://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=778139&st=40&p=11323433&#entry11323433.

Oh, god, somebody said CHIM.

Haven't we had 800 billion CHIM discussions that started from pretty well anything else? Seriously, if I remember right this started as a discussion of how full of holes Oblivion was in it's attempt to be a totaly casual, LotR ripoff game? It started off pretty fun, with all this stuff about determining the legitimacy of the royal lines of the various Tamrielic empires through history.

CHIM CHIMMINY CHIM CHIMMINY CHIM CHIM CHAROO!


^^^plagiarized from some clever, forgotten signature.

Those were in-game people saying it though. It's not unusual for in-game people to be wrong, after all the Remans wore it in the First Era.

Be honest for a moment. The game never gave us any reason to doubt their word. And almost no one did. People who had no other knowledge of lore took the in-game exposition as simple truth. Every two months or so some lucid soul on the Spoilers forum realizes that it doesn't add up, but otherwise it was presented as truth and taken as such.