Okay, as a student of history (in the real world), I'm very interested in how the Empire of Tamriel works. Whilst playing through Oblivion for the first time in several years, I've become increasingly aware of the rather incredible deficiency of the Empire to deal with the failure of the Septim blood line. Forget for a moment, that Martin Septim exists. Under such conditions, as I understand it, the defacto leader of the Empire is Chancellor Ocato. This would, at least by human standards, make him a Regent or Interrex, however the belief that he is in fact angling for the Imperial Throne himself tends to indicate his position is not a regular one. I'm not all together sure what the rules are in the Tamrielic Universe, but if Ocato could conceivably elevate himself to the Supreme Power, then his position is likely extraordinary and ill defined. What interests me most, is the fact that in all the years of the Empire, there was never crafted any sort of contingency plan to deal with the possible end of the Royal Line. Is there any lore-based reason why this should be so?

It is also notable that the line of succession within the Septim family includes no cadet or junior branches. Uriel and his sons represented seemingly the ONLY Septim blood of any type in all the world. I'm not sure how this can even be the case. It seems further that Uriel's sons were unmarried, had no children, and that further his wife must be deceased. Even then it seems the laws governing succession are even MORE strict than Salic Primogeniture. And, again defying belief, there apparently exists no means of simply electing a new Emperor from the nobility in a crisis such as this. Ignoring for a moment the existence of Martin Septim, the state seems to be in a state of utter paralysis once the Septim blood has expired. Could everyone in Cyrodiil for all those long years be THIS incompetent, and or arrogant? I guess this just doesn't add up for me. If the Elder Council is "in charge" and Ocato the defacto (if possibly not the dejure leader) why were no FURTHER steps taken to appoint someone along the lines of a Roman Dictator, Interrex, Regent or any other type of person to be the legally recognized head of state (with well defined powers and responsibilities) for the duration of the crisis or search for an heir?

Perhaps the story of TES IV is supposed to represent a perfect storm or some such, multiple failures of political authority capped off with daedric invasions and provincial unrest. Surely any state would suffer under such strain, but again I really feel the Empire itself has dropped the ball so profoundly in respect to its own leadership that in my mind, it deserves to fall. Was the Septim line extremely insulated and cut off from the rest of the Empire? Were they not allowed to marry beyond a narrow circle such that, unlike the Habsburgs, they ended up with no family branches left when the crisis came? Is it inferred somewhere that the Septim line had died out almost to the last man before Uriel was killed? What about the line in Morrowind in which Tharn was accused of having replaced Uriel's sons with doppelgangers, does that play into events in Oblivion? All this might be easier to explain if I understood (or if it's ever explained) whether or not the Elder Council is a deliberative body capable of passing laws, or if the Empire is solely dependent upon the Emperor, as in the Dominate in the Roman Empire. If the Septim line was vanishing one would think the Council, if so empowered, would pass some kind of law to ensure a soft landing for the Political System, failing that you'd expect the Emperor to do the same. If neither acted, one has to wonder why. I'm interested in hearing your opinions here, cheers!

You make grat points, see Oblivion had a great plot. I'm glad some people realize it. Its setting the stage for so much more than "OMFG WE HAZ NO EMPRAR!!!1!!"

These are good points. Basically Uriel waited too long to marry off his sons, and the (unfounded, AFAIK) rumors that they were dopplegangers made them less marriageable anyway. Probably the main reason for the lack of planning for a succession, though, is only that it was necessary for the TES series.

Tamriel is at the end of an era, even if the Fourth Era hasn't been officially proclaimed. We're meant to see a fallen world; I'm assuming what follows will be an interregnum or even a Sengoku Jidai that could last generations until some would-be Tiber Septim rides in and reunites the Empire. I don't know if that's the tack Bethesda will take for TES V, though; I can't see the player character of a future game searching for, or aiding, a future emperor when that would be too similar to the plot of "Oblivion".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sengoku_jidai

Did you read that post? It's an unconscious indictment of Oblivion's plot. The OP simply hasn't considered how contrived and hollow it is.

OP: I never really think of dynasties having contingency plans. The more persuasive image is of a line of heedless despots who give little thought to the well being of the kingdom so long as it is ruled by their son and remembers them well- a moment's thought for immortality and then they ignore the possible challenges of the future because they enjoy absolute power in the present. Shortsightedness and only a sporadic interest in the business of politics.

But in terms of ES, there should be a legion of Colovian barons and petty kings with distant relations to the Septim line waiting in the wings, but Oblivion provided us with no solid information on how Cyrodiil is run, besides providing a count for each town.. The Septim line is descended from Tiber Septim's brother, because the original heir died, and there have been succession wars in the past. Empresses and Dark Elves have ruled.,


It's important to understand that the office of Emperor is viewed in a mystical light, and it is literally magical. The three Empires all started with miraculous events, divine interventions, and cataclysmic strife. It's the mythical origin of each line that gives the descendants their legitimacy, and by wearing the Amulet of Kings and lighting the Dragonfires you enter the spiritual union of the rulers of the universe.

That's why I don't think Ocato will be emperor; he sounds like a mediocrity to me, and he doesn't have the Mandate of Heaven, in effect.

I think we are forgetting the Divine influence in this bloodline

Alessia and her heirs share a special kind of blood. This wasn't a thing of politics. There was just always the assumption that the protection of Akatosh would be enough. If there was an upset...they were going to have FAR worse problems than a lack of political leadership, after all.

It's a thing of religion and legend. Of ancient and divine powers beyond comprehension. An election of a new emperor? Succession beyond the bloodline? Obviously the entire UNIVERSE would have to be turned up on its head(like, say, the unleashing of Hell upon the earth) for that to happen.

The Septim line functioned in a pretty mundane manner, and the heavenly ideal was broken regularly without anything too bad happening. The Covenant with the Gods was institutionalized pretty effectively with the Dragonfires.

Also, it's generally agreed that Uriel Septim was in decline every since the Simulacrum. Being imprisoned broke his nerve (hence the airy-fairy star-reading) and the prestige of the throne was damaged. It still doesn't explain why Cyrodiil is so politically and socially impoverished, though.

If the institution of the Dragonfires was all that mattered, then there would be no reason not to keep the amulet in the Palace and have some Is-Average-Joe walk in and re-enforce the pact.

Martin was an average joe. His lineage didn't matter, but he was ready to make covenant. Half of the Emperors have been worthless bastards who Akatosh wouldn't lift a finger to help, but they were rulers at the center of the universe and everyone knew they were in charge. So they could wear the Amulet and perform the rather artificial ritual that is built from it.

What?

I'm sorry, I really don't understand your point here. If Martin's connection to the Septim bloodline did not matter, then why was our first task to seek him out, and protect him at all costs? The connection to Septim's divine bloodline made him special. He wasn't average.

If Martin turned out to be http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Adoring_Fan, it probably would have been a bust. "There is truth in the blood, but it is not the truth you seek." The ability to wear the Amulet and hold Covenant is not hereditary, but it sure helps to be the son of an Emperor when your turn comes to take the symbolic mantle. Martin was a priest of Akatosh, to start with. After that, it is clear how he was able to fit the role of an Emperor. Mankar Camoran, who rebelled against his rulers (and indeed his native world) like Alessia and became ruler of his own reality, could wear it too. Probably couldn't light Akatosh's Dragonfires though.

The Amulet if Chim-el Adabal. What does Chim translate to again?

And then someone remind me if there is a translation for Adabal.

I googled Adabal just now, and the UESP Wiki says it means "god stone". CHIM is defined as "connoting 'royalty', 'starlight', and 'high splendor' ." ("Vehk's Teaching")

link? I just get the Adabal-a

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ayleid_Language

Yeah, I just found it. Forgot what 'bal' meant. Godstone of Kings. Stone Spirit of Kings. Or instead of Kings, 'royalty', 'starlight', and 'high splendor'

Y'know. Amulet of Kings.

Not really Amulet of Democratically Elected Representatives, or Amulet of The Guy That Runs Most of the Stuff After the Kings have Died.

Though maybe not just of kings, but of those who have CHIM. The ruler of the orcs would be among those qualifying to wear the amulet, I've heard; I think he's of Tiber's blood.

Not Chim, just the qualities of asskickery that people with Chim would clearly have.

Could one of you show me something that goes further into Chim and its meaning? I only know it from "Chimer", which is apparently "Changed Ones". Which sounds like it doesn't refer to this context at all.

It's not from Chimer, or at least the words aren't derivatives. But the Chimer followed http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml#7 Vivec followed his teachings, which gets into a whole other subject.

Gnostic Jesus had CHIM. Figure that out, and then be silent in your [censored].

Returning to the original prompt, according to http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/brief_history_empire.shtml, emperors have been assassinated before. Give it a read through and see if it helps shed light on the issue. (Or, if nothing else, see if there's a way we can cover this potential developer oversight.)

I just want to know:

What does Chim mean in this context, and how do we know?

Here it just means regal or noble, because those three words I put in italics are the rough translation of the Ehlnofex sigil CHIM. From the source I just linked.

CHIM is a term which has an explicit meaning, but anything "official" said about it has been indirect. If you want to understand the meaning of CHIM in relation to the Amulet of Kings (which I assume is what you're asking) the relevant text is http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/remanada.shtml.

I've read this text. It's somewhat odd and unwieldly, but all the uses of Chim in the text seem to refer to the Amulet.

"And in the child's forehead was the Chim-el Adabal, alive with the dragon-fires of yore and divine promise, and none dared obstruct Sed-Yenna when she climbed the steps of White-Gold Tower to place the babe Reman on his Throne, where he spoke as an advlt, saying I AM CYRODIIL COME. "

All I see here is a strange circumstance under which the Gods remade the covenant. It would seem from the text that man couldn't just CHOOSE a leader, that a series of succession couldn't be decided on by man. As long as mortals counted on the Dragonfires, really they relied on the blessings of the Divine to choose the rulers. I don't think any political system could prepare a person for that.