I'm currently playing through the Companions quests with my Nord Jolgard, and I don't understand why Bethesda killed off Kodlak Whitemane. Yes, he's the harbinger and basically the leader of the Companions, I get that. However, the Companions quest line is simply terrible, and I think Bethesda could have done more by killing off Vilkas, setting the stage for a final Companions quest in which the player goes with Farkas to avenge Vilkas and wipe out the Silver Hand. Thoughts?

Convenient plot device.

Anything would have been better.

because its kind of hard to become leader of a faction that already has a leader...

But Kodlak himself said he isn't anybody's "master" and there would be other ways to get Kodlak out of there. I just don't like how they set it up.

The Companions are terrible. Each guild either has you kill the leader, or the leader is killed by someone else.

cuz dRaMA iz CUUL!!!!

The leader of every faction dies in their respective questlines, in order to open room for you.

RIght I just hate that Bethesda did it that way. I mean I understand killing off Mercer and Astrid, they betrayed their factions. I just don't get why all 4 had to be killed off just so the Dragonborn can take over. Death isn't the only way to advance in something, Kodlak is an old man who didn't always agree with Skjor and Aela's hunting, why not have him step down at the end of the Companions quests?

I get that but that's terrible on Bethesda's part. Doesn't make anything interesting if everyone just dies and then you take over...

This is not unique to Skyrim A leader usually has had to die in order for a new leader to take his place in all of Bethesda's games.

I got to admit that it was completely shocked with how the leader of another guild conveniently dies when he was waking up, going to the kitchen in his undies to get some bread. It was so original how another leader dies just to pander to the player to make him the leader of another guild unlike past TES. And this time it was in record time.

Seriously, in the future I don't really want to be the leader of a guild. Make it an optional thing where you challenge the leader or something. I wish they would do something original next time. I would just be happy with being a valued member of the guild being praised by the true leader. Not some newbie that came in a week ago and keeps taking orders, is barely even at the guild when the quest line is over and worst of all: "Now I remember, you're that new member of the Companions. So you what, fetch the mead?"... No, i'm the "leader", oh! hello Skjor

Exactly, I don't remember any guild/faction in TES not having the leader die to make room for us.

I speculated in the honor debate that Kodlak was the only to die because he was all about fighting honorably and bravely so he likely stood his ground at the door and was the first to greet the band of Silver Hand who naturally outnumbered and cut him down before the other Companions could join the fight.

Still svcks that Kodlak had to die as I like his character but it's a typical thing in these games...I knew the first time I met him that he was destined to die so I could take over

I am reminded of the Morag Tong in Morrowind and how their leader simply retired peacefully and handed over the position to the player.
The fighter's and thieve's guild's leaders from Oblivion also retired.
That's all I remember, though...I think the leaders of every other faction got killed one way or another.

Yes, because the Dragonborn is the friggin CHOSEN ONE ^tm, and Beth decided to lay it on thick with every questline. Again. I'd really like to see Beth get away from this, but I'm not holding my breath.

I think the notion of you becoming leader of either the Comps or CoW is lame. I understand the Listener, since he/she is selected by Night Mommy. And Guildmaster is OK, since you work hard to earn the post. But that's it.

Morrowind: It was possible to take over the MG without killing the current leader. You also rise to the top rank of the Imperial Cult without killing or replacing the leader.

Spoiler section tho

I liked the way Kodlak's death was handled because it can be seen to varying degrees as a consequence of Aela's campaign against the Silver Hand, or karmic payback for how Kodlak sends you off to kill all the witches in order to get out of the bargain with them. That ambiguity is pleasing, and fits well with the questline overall.

And of course it's a dramatic death because there you are, having just returned with the cure he spent so much time searching for...

Killing off Vilkas wouldn't have accomplished any of that from a story perspective.

Because drama. And because you're a special snowflake dovahkiin.

Damn it, why can't we have more of these? It was far more satisfying for the heads of the guild to recognize you themselves while they were still breathing and stepped down to offer you their position.

Better yet, give us the option to turn down the position. Why should some random newcomer that barely knows how to cast a spell--let alone make his own--become archmage when there are at least two (three without the death of the most deserving) others who would fit the role better?

remember Oblivions Mages Guild?
Arch Mage Traven basically said "you know, you would make a much Better Archmage then me. thats it, your the new Arch-mage! I am going to put myself in this Oversized Soul Gem.. now go kill the King of Worms!"

so, that was technically both

I think this issue of killing people [not diplomacy] as the only option to get ahead or get the pretty armor is bigger than the game. It has to do with the nature of the people [or company] who wrote the script and the culture they come from.

In Oblivion it was different with the fighter guild. That leader of the fighters stood down. I know the story wasn't too great but she have not got the ticker to give out orders after what happen to her son. Its up to the player character and the second of command to sort it out and fix the problem.

In the Arena its a different story. To be the grand champion you have to kill the grand champion. That depend if you help him who his father is. When he found out well......

Hah, that it is, and he said it while he was still breathing.

Although I'm fine with it because I really wanted him to die and was sure I'd be a better arch mage than him. Seriously, way to piss off half(or more) of your council Traven.

They I am playing my character in game, is stopping at the college quest line with Magnus Eye and the "old student!" I couldn't think of the name so you know, I stopped with having those orbs there because they are sweet and plus Mirabelle does not get a headache and have to sit down on the ground, I am playing a Breton, so Mirabelle and Collette are a hot subject, I think Mirabelle would be an excellent wife, but yeah, I have never played the Companions quest line, have gone into Jorvaskar many times before but they just do not appeal to me, they seem rather weak in my opinion as a group, they think of their werewolf things as a curse, I am not into the whole werewolf thing, but I was, I would be gung ho about being in the Companions, but I am happy every time a fight breaks out, Ria seems to die, she has usually been a very annoying character throughout my gameplay, meeting me out in the wild, trying to say how good the companions are, I thought it was pretty amusing as I was trekking along near Windhelm, all the animals left me alone, but they were messing up the entire Companions! Ria sounds like a little biotch when she screams, I agree though, it does seem like every guild leader ends up dead in their respective questlines, that is common knowledge though, I think Bethsda made the game this way, which is nice for the character to become a leader of a faction, I would like to see Isran get blown to smitherines by the vampires, then your character become leader of Dawnguard,

Shadow Hide You

Fox, Gray says hello

He also brought Better, Writing and Better, Quest.

And look: Fighters Guild's master is coming down for the party!


Beth just couldn't see other viable options (might have something to do with the magic number 'eleven') and went for the easy path: kill off the leaders. Voila!

Ironically, the guy that screwed everything (again, 'eleven') most probably got the highest salary figure. Go figure.

What I don't get is the fact that you don't see any guard corpse. As independent the Companions are, I don't think guards are supposed to turn a blind eye to a bunch of people with silverwares invading a structure right in the middle of Whiterun.