The only thing that may hypothetically change between light and heavy armours may be the users acrobatic abilities. But this would totally be a role playing change within the users imagination.
Mechanically, within the game as it stands. It makes NO difference by the time you've maxed either skill out. The defense is maxed out well and truly before you reach the maximum level of your character. I think my level 19 Character has a defense rating of 81ish, with the Shivering Isle madness armour and a couple of Aegis rings. My Heavy armour skill is about 88. So whats the point? I could dot he same thing with Light armour.

There has to be one Armor skill. If there isn't, where would the perks be under?

I agree.

I disagree, there should be two... Armoured and Unarmoured. This is one of the few exceptions where I think reducing the skill list could be alright, just specify light/medium/heavy using perks. :mellow:

Acrobatic abilities like jumping height and distance and possibly even dame from falling, yes, also: movement speed, attack speed, sprinting time and speed (with the new system), the weight is also different between heavy and light as well as protective values (duh ), potentially there could also be NPC reactions to what you wear and how effectively you do it.

If all those things were actually taken into account previously, then yes there may be a point to it. But they weren't there always came a point where both classes were the same or very near to, as to make no difference.
Even the weight value is redundant, as a master of heavy armour isn't encumbered by it.

If there is an Unarmored skill (and there wasnt in Oblivion) then BAM, I have nothing to say about movement speeds, Jumping,dodging and all that...

just having armored and unarmored skills would be nice, it would fill the gaps in the warrior archtype and rogue archtype

So Warrior would have 1h 2h Blacksmithing block armored something

Thief is Marksman Alchemy Sneak Merchancraft (heard the 2 skills were merged) Unarmored and something (not putting lockpick as I heard it was merged with sneak)

Unarmored sounds cool, but how do you level it up?


Experience every time you take a shot in the cloth shirt?

Well thats how it worked in Morrowind

Damn....I'm stumped

If you're going to narrow armor skills down to one skill, then I'd say that there isn't really much reason not to just remove them entirely. After all, armor skills aren't really something you have to go out of your way to train, they just increase naturally if you use armor (Kind of like athletics, come to think of it, but that's another subject.) As I see it, the main purpose that armor skills served in Morrowind and Oblivion was to encourage players to wear armor that fits their character, the existence of two or more armor skills meant that you'd be better served by wearing a specific type of armor, namely, whichever one you're best in, rather than wearing a variety of different armors, in some other RPGs that lack a similar concept, if wearing heavy armor doesn't have appropriate penalties, or the game doesn't outright prevent certain classes from wearing specific armor type, then I have absolutely no reason to not just go for whatever armor gives the best defense regardless of what is most "appropriate" for my character. Now, past Elder Scrolls games didn't really offer enough penalties for heavy armor to make me feel like it isn't worthwhile for characters who have no business wearing such things to use them, and the game certainly didn't actually prevent thieves and mages from wearing them (Thankfully too, because such limitations make up a sizable part of the proverbial shark that I hope never to see the Elder Scrolls jump.) will Skyrim be more effective at encouraging focusing on specific armor types without bringing armor skills into the equation? I don't know, but if you reduce the armor skills down to a generic "armor" skill, then this skill still can't fulfill that role. While the real life logic of multiple armor skills is somewhat dubious, I'd say it makes sense in terms of game balance.

Of course, that's only if you don't factor perks into the matter. If there's only one armor skill, you can still have perks under it for light, medium and heavy armor, or just light and heavy. Anyway, the point is that even if the armor skills are reduced to just one skill, one can still use perks to allow the player to specialize in specific armor skills.

Though assuming armor skills, or an armor skill, for that matter, are still in the game, I'd say how they work should be changed a bit, namely, rather than increasing how much armor defends you, they should allow you to move better in it, reducing (but never eliminating.) any penalties that the armor gives you, and perhaps also allowing it to degrade more slowly, after all, armor doesn't become harder simply because you're "better" at using it, but I can buy that you can learn how to move better in it, thus making it encumber you less (I don't mean making it actually take up less weight in your inventory here, but rather making it have a lesser impact on your ability to move effectively.)



That is indeed true, and I don't see any reason why that makes less sense than getting better at fighting in heavy armor from getting hit in the steel cuirass.

That makes perfect sense.

How you would implement that within a game, well thats why I'm not a game dev (that and i'm flat out using forums).

Basically it comes down to, making the classes actually classes, not just literary definitions and limitations. Or get rid of them totally.

I don't think it would be game breaking to implement. The skill would only benefit you the most if you're not wearing any armour (the more pieces of armour you have on, the less it will protect you) and to make up for the the lower armour rating on mastery, they could just slightly increase the chance the enemy would miss while at maxed skill/high skill. Along with the usual combat maneuvers, the skill won't be useless.

In in-game skill books like ice and chitin these things are pretty well explained.
Someone who is adept at using metal armour might not be at chitin or bonemold, because the material is different and they are not used to it.
It makes perfect sense.

It makes logical sense, doesn't mean it works as far as game mechanics goes.

Just a quick search in my post history. I think I agree.

Leave skill slots for worthwhile things.

Hmm, interesting. I never used Heavy in Oblivion, because the first time I tried it (after having played a Light Armor character), I couldn't deal with how clunky-slow I was. Ran back to Light Armor and never used anything else.

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On the main topic - yeah, I imagine they'll have a generic Armor skill, with perks under it for Light/Heavy/whatever.

(I also think there should be a difference between them - the skill it takes to maneuver in a full articulated plate can, is completely different than the skill needed to maneuver your leather-n-chain.)

I mostly agree with this.

I like the idea that one has to possess a certain amount of skill in order to best utilize armor (and yes - a single "armor" skill, rather than dividing it by weight). I don't think that the range of protection offered based on skill should be from "svck" to "great." It should be from "good" to "great." While I think you should be able to gain some advantage from some skill with armor, I don't think it makes any sense for that gain to be particularly notable, nor for the range to start out from "svck."

That part of it illustrates a basic problem with the way that TES approaches skills. By tying level increases to skills (formerly with the distinction of majors and minors - with Skyrim, troublingly, with all skills) they effectively slave skills to the level system - advancement in a skill has to be paced in a way that doesn't unbalance the leveling system, rather than simply paced at whatever pace makes sense. If they were to make the armor skill relatively easy to master and its effect on protection relatively small, that would almost certainly play havoc with the leveling system. So in order to do that, the leveling system would have to be rethought. At the very least, the effect of armor skill increases on leveling would have to be very minor, because it really is a "skill" that would increase quite quickly and max out quite early, so the increases can't be keyed to levels the way that other skills potentially can be.

As for weight - YES! I know this would be unpopular with the more easily frustrated players, but I simply don't care. Heavy armor should slow you down, and that's just the way it goes. I can see some perks that would provide some minimal gain in movement while in heavy armor, but they should be minimal. The notion of zero encumbrance (not just reduced, but ZERO) while wearing a couple of hundred pounds of armor is frankly ludicrous. Absolutely ridiculous. I have little doubt that it will exist in Skyrim, but I sincerely believe that it shouldn't - at all. Heavy armor should provide more protection at the expense of more weight and that's just how it should be. Light armor should provide less protection with the benefit of less weight, and again, that's just how it should be.

I'm glad this thread popped up, because I've lately been re-reading John Steinbeck's translation of Malory's The Acts of King Arthur, and have been thinking about armor, and heavy armor in particular. The entire point of jousting was to unhorse a knight, since as soon as he was off his horse and had to move around on his own, he was under a considerable disadvantage, simply because of all that weight. While mounts probably aren't in the game, and I'm positive that mounted combat isn't, the point is still there - moving around in full plate is extraordinarily difficult. Period.

I actually had the good fortune to be allowed to try on a set of authentic English plate armour from the 1600's (well not a complete set) while I was at school. Now, yes, I was 15yrs old. But there is NO WAY someone of even the most athletic background could run let alone jump in a full suit of plate armour. And I didn't even have the cloth, leather and chain under it. I'm a fairly athletic person naturally, but there is just no way.

So I completely agree with your sentiments.
As the heavy armour stood in Oblivion, It was very "B grade knights and princess movie". You cannot be an acrobat in full steel armour.

I disagree the difference between light and heavy must be made clear. Without light armor what will my jumpy characters wear, Clothes they all look awful, and there are few good clothing mods out there. I decide what kind of armor i want my character to wear at the beginning of the game. and I need them separate.

From Original Post:




Light/No Armor would still be preferrable to cloak 'n' dagger types.

Note that I've only said I want the skills merged or removed. Light armor will still be in.
Just as Heavy armor and anything in between.

Seems that I'm the only one that misses medium armor. It was the happy medium between light and heavy (no pun intended), giving you a greater defense than what light armor offered while not making it impossible for you to carry loot around because of heavy armor's weight. Running through Vivec and legally killing all the Ordinators was a plus, too . . .

Try becoming a expert with wearing heavy armor... Now switch to light armor. Light armor tends to move around alot does not preotect in areas you are used to etcetc. Same with medium. Also fight in the same way you are used to with light armor. You might be used to being able to ignore some blows in heavy armor because you know its just going to bounce off your armor. But with light armor you have to pay attention to every single blow that comes your way because even a glancing blow will still hurt unlike heavy armor. The skills worked it "daft" to think you can easily swap armor out and be instantly proficient with any armor you want. you get used to a fighting style and its a hard habit to kick. Just like using a axe instead of a sword or a 2 handed weapon and switching to a sheild/sword combination. You have to get used to a new fighting style and that takes time. Thus the skill for said thing is implemented. I can see medium armor being taken out has its a between armor that both classes can easily use.

I think there should be a difference in armor types not everything is made and designed the same and everybody you create might not want to wear the exact same type of clothing or armor. A tank like warrior should feel different than my light armor stealthy assassin and should feel different than my balanced spellsword wearing mediam armor.