Ok, in http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml, we learned about the "Aurbis-Polydox", the wheel and Oblivion. Lorkhan wasn't able to "sit calm" and wanted to change something. Ok, there is Nirn. He told the other et'Ada, what they have to do: cut peaces of themselfes out to build a world. Did Lorkhan give some shezzaric flesh too? Ok, if he did or not doesn't make a point. Interesting is that: did he told what would happening? Lose deity and stuff. I assume he didn't, but why the et'Ada were so stupid? Trust someone in a crazy plan, who isn't able to do the same? Sounds not very serious. And whats about Akatosh? The mighty First God, Dragon of time... did he cut flesh out of him self too?

In fact, all (later) Aedra become after cutting the hell out of themselfes "lesser stronger" et'Ada. We know, that there were "lesser" and "stronger" et'Ada. The Aldmeri for example were "stronger" et'Ada (even stronger then a few et'Ada which later become Aedra). But the most of the (later) Aedra were "stronger" et'Ada. And there were the opposite of them: the First Gods, Akatosh and Lorkhan. How the hell it was possible, that "lesser stronger" et'Ada (even Akatosh become lesser) can fight Lorkhan and cut him into peaces and remove his heart? Is this like the horrible scene in McGyver, when the guy fell into a very big anthill?

He's not always seen as a traitor. The negative connotation of trickster (traitor) is a Merish perspective. According to http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/sithis.shtml he represented himself as another Anuadic et'Ada. This is one story of how he would have fooled the Aedra. In others he was just very persuasive, or his ideas were right and he was the one who was betrayed.

Considering that Mundus is a mixture of both Anu and Padomay as is suggested by Lorkhans attempt to return to the first brush and Mundus being the House of Sithis, I reckon he too involved his body in creation and like the others it's still orbiting Mundus.

The second part of your question also doesn't exist in absolutes. Lorkhan being defeated isn't a uniform event. It's true in the Altmer and Nordic histories but the Monomyth also suggests that Lorkhan death wasn't always due to a defeat, but that sometimes he volunteered, presumably to safe his creation.

It's mostly the Altmer who think of Lorkhan as a traitor, as by creating the Mundus, he cut of their connection to the divine.

The Aldmeri for example were "stronger" et'Ada

The Aldmer weren't et'Ada, they were the first elves.

Merish perspective: Tricked the Aedra to create mundus, everyone lost their godship, and clubs seals on a daily basis. And his heart was removed for this, but that was also a trick to allow Mundus to stay stable.

Mannish Perspective: Lorkhan was not a tricker, the elves are just dumb stuck up beings, and their gods svck.

Well...it's kinda like that, on a basic summery. However, I am not too sure with my mannish perspective. All I know is that men follow a very positive view of him.

I lol'd.

Thanks guys.

There appears to be a lot more to Lorkhan than people know as yet. Note the Statue in that DB shrine/cave that is supposed to be Sithis, but appears to be Lorkhan - that suggests possibilities - and possibilities are a serious part of what lorkhan and the Grey Maybe are about.

Sithis and Lorkhan should have their day in court at the least ...

I do not see what exactly these "possibilities" are, since we already know that Lorkhan is a subgradient of Sithis (who, in turn, is himself another subgradient)

Well seeing as Sithis is just a void of nothingness and little pieces of Lorkhan are strewn all over the Solar System, I doubt you'll get your way, 1999.

Well seeing as Sithis is just a void of nothingness

Anu - Everlasting Ineffable Light.
Sithis - Corrupting Inexpressible Action.

Sithis is the change[s] applied to Anu to create the Aurbis. Sithis changed everything, to make it into something.

That sounds like a pretty well-done abreviation of the human perspective. Hell, it's why I'd like a well-done human province in future games: I'm sick of hearing just what various elven races think about everything. It gets a little one sided when the first full incarnation of TES seems to have been the only one with tons-o-fun type lore, and that is primarily elven.

Glad to know people are liking my summaries :celebration:

Hopefully, with Skyrim being the most likely title, we'll get some real mannish perspective of the nature and purpose of Shor. I too am getting rather sick of elven perspectives and the damn compromise that is the 9.

That may well be prophetic Hellmouth - could Skyrim be all about sweeping away the Merish and Imperial past? Remember in Morrowind when the Nords kept saying: has anyone seen an elf, Hahaha?




According to the Mer section of the Monomyth it was the Grey Maybe that was the source or the reality of the multitudes of possibilities that Lorkhan lured the Great spirits of the Void into. It was in fact the 'tastiness of those possibilities that proved the bait for what the Mer (and according to the Mer the et'Ada also)believed was a trap. Where does your point in this context that Lorkhan was a subgradient of Sithis really go when as LostGateToCruelty touches on, stripping away the possibly grafted-on moral values, Sithis and Lorkhan both are 'Agents of Change' - and Change inevitable brings Possibility.

Excuse me Fido_Gladstone but would you try reading the Monomyth again? I think you will find that so far in ES it is only the DB that think of Sithis as the Void and recent re-assessment of the 'standard texts' and new discoveries have led to a very different perspective on both Sithis and Lorkhan gradually emerging here in the Lore Forum. Actually it is a statue that is supposedly of Sithis but that people here believe to be actually a representation of Lorkhan that has led to this change in thought. Basically if you do read the Monomyth then you will see that the main-stream of thought makes no mention of Sithis being the Void. Rather Sithis was a great Primordial Spirit of the Void - rather a different proposition. Though if you feel that the DB are great Scholars and know better than Arteum, the Mer the Empire and everyone else then I guess you will stay with the pov that you have adopted.

Re the little bits of Lorkhan - cogent point. Now consider Vekh's teachings that when he (as a demi-God) died he simply went to sleep in the Dreamsleeve and returned as himself. Also please consider the words of the Precursor (Oblivion Lore that I am sure you are familiar with) that Yffre is waking up. You know about Yffrre and the Earthbones - the gods that sacrificed their substance to give stability to Tamriel?

We also know that something major has been happening with Dagon, the Greedy man and the Dragon. Basdically the naughty boys were taking bits and sticking them where they should not be. But the Dragon caught them at it and told them to put those bits back where they belong - so things are changing ... and that bespeaks possibilities ....

Now consider MK's 101 World-eating thread - some very different perspectives there as we know. To mix mythologies, do you remember was it Jorgamund the serpent or the Fenris Wolf that would eat the World at the end of time?

Truth - that is the Merish perspective. I present the possibility that there is more to this than the merish perspective. You have to wonder what Skyrim and the Nords (who colonised Morrowind before the Chimer arrived there) will bring to the pot.

IIRC, Fenrir was supposed to eat Odin, J?rmungandr would kill Thor by its venom; the worlds would be destroyed by being engulfed in flames by fire giants.

Ty Abnaxus - I remember Surt now! I was wondering if there was something in the constellations re the Serpent that might be relevant but it seems that so far ES has travelled a different path ... and if the Nords come to rule you have to wonder if that will herald an Ice Age - sort of the other direction.


Back to the OP: Maybe they all ganged up on him according to the Mers. but then there is another book you find in the Mages Guild basemant in Balmora - about King Wulfhearth I think. That attributes the Heart to him.

So is Lorkhan actually King Wulfhearth - a Nord Ancestor? And then you might wonder if the Mer were using their great longevity to change history to suit themselves having lost out to the Nords and after that hiding behind the skirts of the Empire. The Imperial lines apparently blended with mer through their early Breton members and inherited the Ayelied architectural point of view after all. So if you think of them as mere mortals equivalent to the races of today then maybe it was Lorkhan who sent the mer running, but then in later times, when he was past his best, was betrayed by them. And that is even before you consider the possible effects of the meddling of the Daedric Princes and their lesser kin.

Looked at like that the purpose of the Towers is not to directly affect the Mundus, but rahter to fix the way the people of Tamriel think and what they believe - assuming that the belief of the people changes the Gods and the Gods change reality.

Men see Lorkhan as the giver of life. Elves usually see good ol Doom Drum as the severance of their godhood. Buuut, oh well.

Only the redguards have a unique way of describing it.

I wouldn't say subgradient... I see it as Anu filtering all his thoughts, his exact opposite, into Padomay. Not creating a lesser form, just pulling from himself. Just as the Aedra pulled from themselves and we do see the Aedra as the servitors of Anu, right? The daedra shape. The aedra create. God, how many times do I have to say it!? haha

Heyyy - I really like that way of describing the process - pulling from themselves ...

I must admit that I find that difference between shape and create very hard to pin down - as if one of those words is really being used in a manner generic that lacks some vital direction - and not just in ES either. The reason for that is that pure creation should be from something totally new, but in this world and apparently in ES it all seems to be the re-arrangement of something smaller, lesser, other - if you see what I mean?

Could it be that the one form takes on a true life of its own and the other merely mimics life? But then is everything that does not die not living? If that is the case then what of eternal souls? Are they not living? It is a puzzle to me :shrug:

I was sure I'd need to reiterate. And yes, I see what you mean. 1999 always has a way of making you rethink things.

Ok, I mean that if the daedra want something outside of Oblivion, they can't simply create.
For example, if you want to walk on water you can't cast a conjuration spell. Only alteration.(or mysticism in some cases)

They have to weave through the fabrics of Mundus and alter everything in this order, this design without structure. I might be totally confused right now by I'm seeing it like this.

If I want an apple. I can't open my hand, wish for it, then magically have an apple sitting in my palm. Lets say, theoretically, Nirn is an apple. The Aedra(willing or unwilling) created Nirn.(In whichever way you fancy) The most the daedra can do is cause destruction or alter things within the Mortal planes. The daedra have Oblivion where the Aedra are powerless. My point is, the aedra have total power over Nirn. The daedra can only alter. Or better yet, redesign.

So long as you understand I feel you are quoting Lore accurately ... that still does not do it for me though it is interesting and I would like to hear more of your thought in that direction. I will argue this around if I can.

My own view takes in the fact that the Daedra are said to have created their realms in Oblivion from their own substance - the same appears to hold true for the Aedra re Nirn. Re lands it appears that both created in a similar way.

Regarding 'people' it appears that the Aedra/et'Ada are said to have 'created' of their own substance - drawing forth or splitting off and reshaping part of themselves rather than bringing forth something entirely new.

Not totally sure about the creatures of Oblivion. It may be that they are what they have always been - creatures of the Void manifest/made manifest within the Grey Maybe and fighting the distortion imposed by the demands of their new environment. Now that might be the source of this claim of difference - and that it only pertains to living creatures. But looked at another way the Daedra have simply chosen to defend themselves against the new environment with greater integrity - where the et'Ada simply fell to pieces

I said in the realms of Oblivion the daedra have the power to create. Who cares what's in Oblivion? Even the more powerful daedra admit finding the antics of the lesser daedra and basic distaste for ambition nothing short of monotous. I'm saying, for lack of a better term, to each their own. In this case, both the Aedra and Daedra are powerless outside of their own creations.

But, I believe we've wondered a bit off topic.

Powerless outside their own spheres?

No...more like powerless within the context of their own spheres when isolated from mortals and the Mundus, because both the main Aedra and the Daedra and the things they represent would be worthless in a universe devoid of sentient life. They need Mortals for their aspects to make any sense at all - just like most gods, in the real world or fantasy. Without things to play with or to worship them, they might not exist at all, or in a completely different form.

What exactly are/is the "Grey Maybe"?

The various possibilities that can occur between IS and IS NOT.

The Aurbis?

Bingo -

Sithis is the start of the house. Before him was nothing, but the foolish Altmer have names for and revere this nothing. That is because they are lazy slaves. Indeed, from the Sermons, 'stasis asks merely for itself, which is nothing.'

Sithis sundered the nothing and mutated the parts, fashioning from them a myriad of possibilities. These ideas ebbed and flowed and faded away and this is how it should have been.