Allow me to present my counter-argument.

To start, allow me to adress the people that claim the issue can be solved via -100% destruction magicka cost.Allow me to translate this suggestion into an oblivion context:

Person 1: "I cant tank enemies, they hit me a few times and I die. Isn't armor underpowered?"(Not really, just an example)

Person 2: "Can't you enchant your armor for 100% chameleon? Why are you complaining?"



The reason is, obviously(to some of us), that is no different from typing 'tgm' into the console. Why even play if the entire basis for the end game is essentially a tweaked way of accessing a console command?



Now, Moving on to the stats:

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Comparison:

One handed Perks: Armsman(100% damage), Bladeseman(20% chance of doing more critical damage(assume 100% extra damage, so equates to 20% damage increase), Dual flurry(35% extra damage) dual savagery(50% extra damage), Savage Strike(25% damage), Fighting Stance(25% more effecient power strikes). Oh, and they can also do power attacks, that about doubles their damage while they can do them.


Destruction Perks: Destruction(50% more effecient), Augmented Fl/Fr/Sh(50% damage), Dual Casting(20% damage boost, 25% less effecient.)

Culminating in...

One Handed: 400% damage, 1200% damage when using power attacks, and 75% normal stamina usage And did you know you can power attack with even one stamina?


Destruction: 180% damage, and 70% stamina usage.


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One Handed Novice Weapon Stats(first perk used): Iron Sword x2: 17 damage per dual strike with no stamina use, ~25 damage per dual power strike.

Destruction Novice Spell Stats(first perk used): Flames x2: 16 damage/second with 12 magicka/second. No power attack available.


Add a second perk, and we get this:

One Handed Novice Weapon Stats(first perk x2): Iron Sword x2: 20 damage per dual strike with no stamina use, 30 damage per dual power strike.

Destruction Novice Spell Stats(Novice Destruction, Dual Casting): Flames x2: 19 damage/second with 17 magicka/second. No power attack available.


Now, let's jump to the endgame, and no enchantments(single skill only.)

One Handed Mastery Weapon Stats(All Perks): Daedric Sword x2 (100 damage per hit, 300 damage per power strike, power strikes now take 75% of previous stamina and stamina meter is much larger. Assume 500 stamina(most points into stamina) Assume 10 power strikes before depleted: Total damage before depletion: 3000 damage, then damage drops to 100 damage per second)

Destruction Mastery Spell Stats(All perks): Lightning Storm Dual Casting (112.5 damage per second, 59 magicka per second. Assume 500 magicka(most points into magicka), lasts for about 10 seconds, for 1125 damage. Magicka regenerates at 3% per second, base, resulting in 28.125 damage per second once magicka is depleted.)


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Now Include Support Skills(Armorer, Enchanting, Alchemy), but all separate(to avoid absurd alchemy/enchanting stacking)

One Handed Boosts: Legendary Daedric Sword+Smithing= 75% damage boost = 175 base damage, 525 power attack damage. + Alchemy = 30% damage = 220 base damage, 680 power attack damage, + Enchanting = +75% damage = 370 base damage = ~1.1k power attack damage.

Destruction Boosts: Smithing: None. 112.5 damage per second. Alchemy: +30% damage, = 146.25 damage per second, Enchanting = zero magicka cost, making this damage perma.



Final Conclusion, with all forms of enchanting:

One Handed: 370 constant damage, ~1.1k power attack damage every ~3 seconds. Average: 613 damage per second.

Destruction: 146.25 damage per second. No power attacks. 146.25 damage per second.


Final Conclusion, without (possibly broken) enchanting:

One Handed: 680 damage for 10 seconds, followed by 211 damage, with 680 power attack damage, average 367. With stamina potions stabilizes at 680.

Destruction: 146.25 damage per second for roughly six seconds, followed by ~28 damage per second indefinately. With magicka potions, stabilizes at 146.25 damage per second.


Final Note: This does not include the damage increase from the skill itself, only the perks. Therefore, the actual damage is a significant margin larger than this for one-handed.

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These are the stats. Now I'm not saying you're wrong, in certain aspects of what you have said; Skyrim is, first and foremost, an RPG. The objective is to fit into your role and play as that. That's just wonderful. Now let me talk to you about immersion. Immersion is when, after a night of playing Thief 2, you are walking in the dark and find yourself searching for your visibility gem. Immersion is when you're playing Condemned and you cat suddenly jumps onto your lap only to be immediately launched off by a reflexive cannonlike blast of terrified piss. Immersion can save the life of a bad game, and conversely immersion can be the death of a perfectly wonderful game. Now let me paint a picture for you; you walk into a new dungeon at a ripe level 40, fresh off the college of winterhold after having finally maxed your destruction skills, setting out with the best gear money can buy. You Immediately run into a bandit, who you cast your best spell at; it takes approximately 1/8th of his health bar off, and he procedes to turn you into a human shish kabob with his two handed sword! If i have ever seen an immersion breaker, that's it.

So you're right. The game is about playing it, not "DPS" or whatever other handy phrases you ignorantly despise. But I am also right; when the magical skill set that is supposively supposed to cause, as the name suggests, "Destruction" does less than 1/4th the damage of an equivalent combat character, there is something wrong. Regardless of how you phrase it.

1) No, but I feel a TES RPG should and needs to encompass more builds than melee. thief, magic.
Which it does not.
Play a mage and be pigeonholed into destro/ conjuration.

2) you know what, you can spout things about 'op and balancing' all you want this does not mitigate the fact that this is a single player open world rpg as opposed to halo. While you may say spellmaking is not an essential part of Oblivion it sure as hell is the sheer and single reason TES made it to Oblivion in the first place.
Arena is a mere dungeon crawler without it and there would never have been a Daggerfall without spellmaking as that is what lifted Arena above the rest.

3) I am arrogant and rude. Have you seen my avatar? Animal Roar!
This does not mean I am wrong, stupid, or know nothing about the games and especially the lore.

* In clarification:
For a long time I sought to be something I was not, namely polite and well adapted. Finally, in my 30's I resigned to the fact that I am not that. I am the one who asks the awkward question at the wrong time. I cant really help it, it is who I am.
So I followed good advice, namely to do what you are good at and do it as hard as possible, and became myself.
So I do embarras peoples. So I still get to look at people all tomboy challenge while I am nearing my 40's.
One does not have to fight what one is one can embrace it.

I've no idea what is the point of defending the magic system is it the newness of the game, or what.

While I love this game, I mainly play a spell caster or a person with magical support and I find it irritating they have stripped this game of its depth in reguards to the magic system.

You must not have seen a lot of Merari's post, you have not been on here that long, he knows what he is talking about and we will not hesitate to tell you if you are wrong or if he feels you are wrong. Listen to words of wisdom my friend. You can try to argue but I have seen him and Xarnac and myself included we have all made excellent points about spell creation.


1. the game needs to fit the role of how somebody wishes to play. That is any play style and any combination of things.

2. Yes, this is a single player game. Spell creation is the backbone of magic and Bethesda has ripped that out. So now we have barely no options as mages we are limited to a few set things and that is it. We are limited more so than ever before because of the whining that was going on for years about spell making being to powerful. You had the option to control that power: just like in this game you have control of the crafting elements. It is up to you to superpower things or not. Then if and when somebody chooses to overpower and keep overpowering they shout the game is broken. It was your choice to do that. Sell the gear and delete your spells. But now we do not have that option, they destroyed the ,magic system and left a foundation and thats it, it even feels unfinished.
3. Yes you are and you have points to back it up. :foodndrink:

*Claps*

Well done, one of the best posts I've seen in a very long time.

All that destruction needs is scaling with skill level and some sort of Mage-equivilant to smithing.. Thats it. Then everyone will simmer down and enjoy the game... Most of them anyways.

I can't agree enough. I've used enchanting to lower my magicka costs (thus making my mage substantially more powerful) but I can't deny my disappointment in the lack of a spellmaking system.

You don't have to break the game if you use spell-making. You can actually vastly enrich your gaming experience if you use the system reasonably.

I can't think of a reasonable defense for the removal of spell-making.

This is something I have been trying to explain, people seem to overlook it.

Neither can I.

I think the reason spellmaking was removed was because it made magic too anolytical, when it was supposed to be mystical.

People ask for a 'nerf' of smithing/ alchemy shennanigans in Skyrim.
Why?

I am perfectly happy with my legendary daedric sword that has two effects on, all of which capped by normal skills without boosts.
Why nerf?

I like that when I want to, I can make a super powerful sword.
I dont, but I can if I want.

Why take that away?

Again this is limiting and its based on player choice.

There is not one viable reason one person on here can give as to why change them other than balance.

the option is there to use it, but what some do not think about is roleplaying. I do what my character wants not what I specifically want but what I want for that character. I try to make them their own people.

With the lack of spell creation I feel somewhat limited interms of content and roleplaying as a spell caster.

Are mages "broken"? No, that's far too strong a word. But playing a mage is far less interesting and fun than it was in Oblivion, due to two factors: 1) lack of custom spells, 2) less spell effects to toy around with. The key to Oblivion magery was custom spell experimentation. This added a level of creativity and inventiveness in spell casting that has never been matched by another game. Some complain that it was OP; but half of the fun was in devising diabolically overpowered spells with which to create havoc.

Mages aren't "broken," but spell casting gameplay has taken a big step back compared with Oblivion. And I mean even stock "out-of-the-box" Oblivion; it's not even fair to compare Skyrim to a fully-modded Oblivion from a veteran player who knows how to set up the best mods.

[censored] IT!!! I'm going to say this only once... NOBODY. EVER!! USE. THIS. ARGUMENT. AGAIN.

IF YOU ARE UNABLE TO CONTROL YOUR ABILITY TO REGULATE USAGE OF AN IN-GAME ELEMENT, THAT IS YOU F***ING ISSUE!

Legitimate game-play elements should not be removed due to the lack of restraint a player has to not use that element. Those that want to used it get ripped off, if it is removed. If it stays, nobody gets ripped off. Except those with a lack of self-restraint, which as I said, is their own F-ING problem. In Morrowind, I like being a freakin Deity. I love being nigh unstoppable. I have fun running at speeds that would make Sonic the hedgehog cut his wrist. I enjoy jumping across the entire [censored] F-U-C-K-I-N-G providence in a single bound, only to float down like a butterfly!!

Oblivion didn't have as much freedom, but at least you could be a Master Chameleon, or a Mirror Shield that reflected all damage and resisted all Magic. But you know what? In both of those games, you EARNED that power, you had to specifically put effort into those things. You didn't gain them after playing a quest, you had to specifically work towards the goal of getting that powerful! It's not like you just entered ^^vv<><>BA and... BLAM! "you have activated God-Mode!"

Players should not be punished because some other player was upset that there was an option to customize something which could be used to become God-Man. It's like when people [censored] and complain that some millionaire or billionaire isn't donating money to charity. Most of them worked to get that successful. And some of those who earned the money and success worked their asses off, doing so much work, the common man would have quit the job immediately.

Like if someone was on a trial for [censored], and their excuse was, "they found the teen girl tied up and blindfolded in a stall of a small pub while they were cleaning up after closing," and that they couldn't resist the temptation... ...

It is a bull-s**t excuse.

Bethesda! Please make go away the minor amount of thought I must put into your games!

I wonder who actually read the first post before posting, some of these responses take nothing from the original post. Just saying. :spotted owl: With that said, I agree with the OP. Magic has worked quite well for me though, especially in my first build which I meant to make a warrior build but turned out to be a very strong mage build. Yeah, I don't know, but I liked it and it worked well so I went with it, though I find that magic is not generally accepted in Skyrim. :sadvaultboy:

Magic is good overall. Most issues are from destruction past level 40, and even earlier on Master difficulty; its horrible and not fun. I don't believe the OP has tried that combination.

I have played Oblivion and Morrowind so yes, I played with spell creation before. I don't remember anyone complaining about "balancing" or "XXX skill or build is useless that it should be changed." When I played Oblivion, my first character was an overleveled melee and I was only able to beat the game with enchanting and spellmaking. In Morrowind, I had a god-like conjurer and it was fun.

The point is though, why complain? Can you accept the fact that maybe magic works differently in Skyrim? According to the game, Nords hate magic and the mage guild got wiped out long before the events of Skyrim take place. So obviously Bethesda made the decision that Skyrim isnt the land where powerful magic is taught. So maybe they nerf Destruction too much, but seriously what is with the complain? Maybe you are more comfortable with the older system but don't get too caught up by game mechanics.

Try to be more open to change and maybe respect Bethesda's design decision for a bit; The next TES probably won't be like Skyrim anyways.

It's not so much a matter of balance, but coherence. If skilllevel scales the damage/magnitude of skills, there is no reason to have a skill where this is turned upside down. The game defies its own rules.
Same reason why people feel smithing and enchanting are overpowered. I might want to make a mastersmith and a master destruction mage, but I know the smith will be inherently overpowered. In this instance, the game forces you to be powerful, whether you want or not. It takes options away.

More like Red and Green.

Skyrim would really svck if you were colorblind... cause Magic is Blue.

...

...

...

(For those who don't get it ---> In-Game: Combat, Stealth, Magic)

Why not have an "On-the-fly" spell creation system? IE, you have to do certain things to force more juice into your spell, and you might not be able to hold onto it for too long or it will explode in your face, or...see where I'm going here?

So you buy the spell types, and then can use different combinations in mid-battle to make spells that have differing effects. And maybe as a mage, you could make a certain spell beforehand, write it down as a scroll, and not have to worry about it failing or blowing up in your face in exchange for a little prep time?

It's not that spell making was bad was because it took thought, it was because it took away the mystery of it. It was like...Magic is supposed to be MAGIC, y'know? Like, mysterious, mystical, hard to comprehend. With oblivions spell-making system none of that was there. It was all just "Do I have enough money to make my Epic Nuke 2(Efficiency Mode(frost))? Honestly, it took LESS thought that having limited options, because you could literally make the correct spell for each circumstance rather than having to plan and use strategy and tactics.

I personally didn't like it. I don't like the limits Skyrim has, either, but I dont think that Oblivion's format is the way to fix it.

The balancing argument was raging when I joined here in 09 it has went on until the release of Skyrim and this is why the spell creation is dumbed down. the spell creation has been a part of this game since Arena. There is no reason that spell creation is out none other than complaining. Now I am going to give a mouthful to get it back in that is how it was removed. That is the point in complaining. The next Elder Scrolls is going to be out in five or so years. We are fresh off the release of Skyrim, and yes I want my biggest complaint heard by Bethesda. I cannot respect a bad design decision about my favorite game series of all time.

The OP has made some great points, but I think that balance is somewhat important.

I haven't really played as a mage yet. But I am playing a light armor one handed ranger type and early on magic felt pretty reliable, now it's kind of a joke. Granted I haven't invested a lot into magicka, so I can only get a couple spells off and it's spent. My one handed has outgrown my destruction skill by quite a bit, but only as a necessity. Every fight I start off with a surprise bow attack followed by magic until they get close then I switch to melee. However over time the magic was weaned out of my attack because it became a waste of time. It's only good to hit a dragon any more with a lightning bolt spell. I can't really use it enough to raise it as fast as my other skills because it just didn't keep up. Even with a bow I can block, back pedal and still take someone out, but if I try to cast with someone in my face it results in a lot of pain and little damage dealt.

Maybe Bethesda envisioned mages to be more difficult, but I think what most people want is to be able to one shot some people, so that they FEEL BADASS! Isn't this game about starting out weak and eventually becoming badass? Who wants to have to cast 50 spells to kill a group of guys over 5 minutes? I'd be fine with my best spell killing the first guy with one or two shots, and then have to wait for some magicka to come back a bit. Kind of like how one handed with two swords is. I can typically dual power attack someone and it does the double slash move or whatever and that kills most enemies. But then I have no stamina left after one or two of those moves, and I'm gimped a bit and have to switch to sword and shield for a bit until my stamina comes back. I think people just want a similar experience as a mage... feel like a badass for a few seconds anyway, then drink more potions or whatever for the next assault. But from what most people say they have to cast 50 spells to kill someone and it gets old.

So, because most magic schools svck, enchanting is used to make them better, which makes people think enchanting is OP?

Getting pretty tired of people acting like melee "has to have" Smithing or Enchanting or both to function properly. Because they do not at all, and those who use them to their fullest are simply trivializing an already moderately easy game (on any difficulty). This keeps being repeated again and again as though melee cannot survive with just what the game gives them on all but Master level and that they are somehow crippled if they do not at least use Smithing. This is a gross exaggeration and nothing but hyperbole used as both an excuse as to why "Destruction is fine" as well as why the crafting professions in their current forms are justified.

The issue is that physical damage does not need any of the crafting professions to operate smoothly. Yet, options exist for them to increase it's effectiveness exponentially, Destruction has nothing even remotely similar and it simply stalls completely. Even abusing Enchanting to get 0 cost spells does not improve it's power, it just extends fights until something dies...eventually.

It's also absurd to say that Bethesda "had a vision of how X character should be played". Do you even realize how completely ridiculous that sounds for a game that is supposed to be all about freedom? Even if that's the case, the truth is that Conjuration is not just a school that needs to work in tandem with another. It fully functions all by it's lonesome. It's so strong in fact, that taking pretty much anything else in conjunction makes it seem as broken as Smithing + Enchanting.

People also like to keep coming up with this wild ass theory that "Mages are supposed to use multiple schools" or you are not really "playing the class correctly". Who says? These people just because it's their only counter argument as to why certain skills are terrible? These same people would probably not have said anything at all if Destruction was on par with every other damage dealing tree, but it's not, so they make up excuses. In all of the previous TES games you had freedom to do what you wanted to do, and NEVER were you forced to use more than a single school of magic if you did not want to. If anything, they screwed up with the coding somewhere, and it's going to be hilarious when they finally come right out and say that it was not working as intended.

Enchanting makes everything better. The skilleffects are still incoherent.


Exactly. We all remember the preview gameplay videos, where most of the time, we would see a spell in one hand and a weapon in the other. Everyone thought this was so cool. Well, in low levels maybe. Destruction falls behind a simple weapon so fast, you're better off using a dagger in your other hand.