So then are people saying all builds should be equally effective? Because that just doesn't make sense.



I guess I just need to go and play a magic-oriented character. I can tell you this: Even a Conjurer is going to need to extensively use spells outside of Conjuration. Others have agreed with that. And I have played Oblivion, and used Magic effectively, but I did so by using multiple schools - Conjuration, Restoration, Alteration and Destruction most often. Illusion and Mysticism less so, but still thrown into the mix. There's simply no way I could have used Conjuration and just not bother with Alteration to protect myself and Restoration to heal myself.

To the one poster who's complaining he can't tank with only magic skills - yeah, I've never played WoW and have no desire too, but I find the term "tank" much more convenient than typing "toe-to-toe warrior with heavy armor and weapons" repeatedly - yeah, if you wanna tank build a character with skills that are meant for tanking. That just isn't what Destruction magic was meant to do, and it makes no sense to say "I want to tank but I'm pissed that you can't tank effectively with any and all skill combinations."

Thats cause mages are balanced around their magic schools.

Just like a warrior will have: Light or Heavy armor, One handed or two handed, restoration, Smithing & enchanting, ATLEAST, to become powerful. Add in Block as a 2h user or 1h+shield warrior.
For thiefs: Light armor, Sneak, Onehanded or Bow, (pick pocketing, not required but you will want it), Alchemy, Smithing and Enchantment, ATLEAST, to become bad ass.

Now lets look at mages thats complaining. They want: Destruction, Restoration and Enchantment. Posslby Alchemy.

Now, compare above for just a second. So for melee to become the all mighty powerful class they can become, they need twice as many skills as mages that believe they are underpowered when going destruction.

I say this: Mages equivalent to heavy armor: Alteration and or Conjuration. All you need.

Mages need the least skills to become maybe the most powerful of all the classes. If they add in conjuration to their mix they just swish past. But they dont want that, cause they want to deal all the damage themself.
Well, you can do this but you wont do it as good, far away, as good as a thief or warrior. Why?: Cause IF Destruction would be as good as you want it to be, then what if you mix in some conjuration and some illusion to that?
You can already become utterly overpowered in this game, why would you like to break that?

They are not going to rebalance the complete game just for you, when its already perfectly balanced for mages that take the schools they must take in order to become as powerful as their warrior or thief counterparts.
Why should mages need less skills then others. Actually, you already need 2 or more skills less then warriors or thiefs to become powerful.

Thiefs can get away with the least if they just focus on stealth and daggers or bows.. But then they must get 90-100 stealth AND use muffled enchant on their boots or they will be detected extremly fast.

Again, why do you even want to play the game as an all over the top powerful monster? Whats the charm in no challenges? Thats atleast my question mark.

I rerolled with a wood elf, Im now lvl 31. Stealth and bow, using 2h for melee. light armor ofc. My highest skill is pick pocketing. And I do have smithing to 60, but only iron and magic weapon perk. I can increase the damage of bows with roughly 25%. Thats ok, I dont want more.

At lvl 30 I managed to find a glass bow...finally. Most players at 30 us running around with daedric bows, self smithed with enchants.
Me....
I really enjoy this and playing it hard. I mix play between Adept and Expert, since Expert with my current character that have no enchants or alchemy, makes so poor damage with his bow that unless I get in double sneak attacks with atleast 1 crit on a bandit boss, he will have more then half health left. Im almost never one shotting enemies with my opener, but taking out half. Thats on Adept by the way. Expert.....

I love how I need to tactically withdraw, stealth in a corner or run the heck away, and come back after running a cirkle to fight again.
Sure, i have ranged and its easier but I opt for low damage to the fights are much harder and more interesting.
I have had encounters with gangs of bandits I had to reload 15 times before I managed to beat them............on Adept. At lvl 25-30.
With my orc that I shelfed. he would have run in, killed them all before they could say hallelulja and I would feel powerful. Some players like that. I dont.

Anyway, Destruction is very well balanced. Actually its too powerful for Adept until very late game. You are forced to play on expert or master as mage most of the time due to your insane damage if you want a challenge.

The main problem with the complainers is that they are complaining that they cant steam roll with their destruction ONLY spec, on Master difficulty. And thats just.......I have no words.

Its a single player game, and Mages are balanced. Maybe the most powerful class if you use your magic schools. Bethesda imo overdid the mage and it should be nerfd. But thats me.

So then are people saying all builds should be equally effective? Because that just doesn't make sense.



I guess I just need to go and play a magic-oriented character. I can tell you this: Even a Conjurer is going to need to extensively use spells outside of Conjuration. Others have agreed with that.

I think maybe the way that spellcasting is looked at is being changed. Honestly, after reading the gripes on Destruction as a specific school, I can honestly say that 90 of the magic is broken in Skyrim threads mean Destruction is broken. This seems to be a common farce. One broken skill is not a totally broken side of the game, it means that, that side of the game is not meant to be played on its own. Does that svck? Yes it does. The developers probably made a conscious decision somewhere along the line that they didnt want destruction mages playing a pure destruction build, they wanted people to be using Restoration to shield themselves (albeit this is useless with in-combat magicka recover mechanics) or Conjuration, Illusion for support.

I think the problem is that the mages of the group see Destruction the way melee characters see your two handed warrior. They want destruction to be a frontline infantry ability. They want destruction mages to be able to go out, with nothing but destruction spells and be successful and Bethesda's devs sat down and went "We dont want it that way". I wouldnt say destruction is broken, I am saying that single skill domination is dead. Two handed warriors are probably relying on enchantment abuse, Blacksmithing and alchemy abuse to get their magic defenses upo, or just building a huge HP pool. From reading the OPs post, im convinced that simply Magic in SKyrim is just more complex then your other two classes and you are meant to be mixing and dabbling in the other trees.

I am not saying this was a good decision, its hardly a game ending decision for me but I am sure there will be some who just cant play like they used to. Adapt or die I guess.

The funny apart about this hypothesis is that I am suggesting the game is becoming more complex by forcing you to use an array of spells instead of one or two damning ones, and everyone says the game is being dumbed down.....

Ya right Look at necromancy it's broken to pieces... it's down right useless compaired to atronaches, I don't use destruction so I don't realy know. But seriously go play a necromancer charecter using frost spells and zombies impossible, What I loath is when people say something like oh well you shouldnt try to use a Conjuration only class but then it's like well i can play and win using one hand,two hand,archery,Destruction(well your supossed to, once again never tried it) why not only conjuration and be a summoner it was possible in oblivion. It's actually some what possible with atros because there so [censored] tastic over powerd compaired to necromancy, zombies are complete abject failure. to bad you can't have two summons in the begining I want to roleplay a necromancer but you get plowed T-T. I thought skyrim was supossed to make all classes viable Like for summoner you would need alot of mana so can't take a hit and no real offence because you have to relly on summons. cant wait for the creation kit!!!

P.s. don't insult me over my grammer thats what trolls do when they have nothing better to bring to a agrument.

Exactly, this game does NOT allow you to play they way that you want to play if you want to be a caster. Kind of defeats the purpose of that moniker that they USED to live by...

Exactly, this game does NOT allow you to play they way that you want to play if you want to be a caster. Kind of defeats the purpose of that moniker that they USED to live by...

What video game have you been playing? Certainly not Skyrim. Conjuration takes wet dumps on Destro, and can be used solely as a mean of defeating even Master - its been done.

Look, I do not have to read this. But we-hey, I have.

And while you provide a nice block of text there is a single sentence that invalidates it all.

Have you played Daggerfall or Morrowind?

Yeah.
Mages are not broken compared to any other title in the series.
I do not really care about how it is handled in this particular game.
I care about the progression.

Simple fact is that games that are made 20 years ago have better magic.
I do not have to name them, you know them. I name one, masters of magic.

What the hell?
In a TES game?

How can you defend this magic system?
In a TES game?

I have said it before and I will say it again.
The simple fact is no spellmaking is no Daggerfall. Arena would never have had the staying power without it, being only a dungeon crawler in the end.

No Daggerfall, no Morrowind, no Oblivion
And you remove the one thing that got you all this way.

Well done.

To the point that Conjurers don't need to bother with Restoration to heal themselves, or any sort of shield spell, or anything? They just conjure up something and stand back and watch their conjured minion fight, while drinking a cup of coffee? Because I've seen people complain that Conjuration, or at least Necromancy doesn't work well either by itself.

To answer an earlier question that you edited out, no, I'm not playing a mage of any sort. My point is not to say that the magic system has the proper amount of "balance" so to speak, to make mages viable. My point here is that there are at least some posters complaining that they shouldn't have to focus on multiple skills - that they should be able to use only Destruction or only Conjuration and still win fights. I

You bring up good points my friend as always in reguards to magic.

Destruction is under powered yes its not fiction, the overall damage of the class at later levels is to low.

Spell creation could have fixed this, scaling the magic to your level could fix this.

Spell creation has been around since Daggerfall and it is the backbone of I think I am safe to say ninety five percent of mages ever made for this game. No body can deny a ice spear that explodes in a wave of fire, or a frenzy soul trap spell with a small area of effect would not be greatly entertaining and useful to mages. Spell creation opened our options and we were not limited to a few choices.

Since Arena actually, and arena had the best creation system of any TES game.

But yeah. Why the blazes can I not cast a soul trap on target?!
Anyone?

Lazy!

Forgive me, I have not played or seen a whole lot of Arena. I have looked a lot into Daggerfall tho.

I miss my touch spells too. I want the thrower spells in Skyrim, but I also want target and touch.

That is my point exactly. :foodndrink:

To the point that Conjurers don't need to bother with Restoration to heal themselves, or any sort of shield spell, or anything? They just conjure up something and stand back and watch their conjured minion fight, while drinking a cup of coffee? Because I've seen people complain that Conjuration, or at least Necromancy doesn't work well either by itself.

To answer an earlier question that you edited out, no, I'm not playing a mage of any sort. My point is not to say that the magic system has the proper amount of "balance" so to speak, to make mages viable. My point here is that there are at least some posters complaining that they shouldn't have to focus on multiple skills - that they should be able to use only Destruction or only Conjuration and still win fights. I'm playing a Nord warrior - should I get pissed that I had to put perks in Heavy Armor? Should I be able to simply walk around naked, without armor, and swing a big-ass hammer and put all my perks in Two-Handed Weapon and expect that to work? No Heavy Armor skill, no Smithing to improve my weapons, no Archery for distant targets or airborne Dragons, no Restoration to heal my unprotected skin, just Two-Handed Weapon to crack skulls?

Because while I understand many of you are not making that argument, it still seems like some are arguing that they shouldn't have to use any Restoration or Alteration or anything except Destruction alone or else Conjuration alone - and that just seems ridiculous.

Arena let you AOA on target without that 'fancy dual wield'
It just did it, as an option in the spellmaking menu.
AOA on self too.

Now that would be interesting. The only thingI like about th new magic is the duel wield kind of reminds me of Morrowind where you equip your spell.
However I do wish Skyrim opened our options, I feel rather restricted as a mage in not being able to customize my character for my style of play.
It just lacks depth to the system.

That is because it is gutted.
Only the sheer clean picked bones are left.