Inspired partially by the potion thread, in which the argument presented by some posters for potions being important to maintaining magicka was that magic was overpowered.

What makes magic overpowered? I don't disagree that it was overpowered in oblivion, just thinking more about the "why" and what they could do to fix it.

My personal thoughts -

#1. Most NPCs/enemies have little to no damage reductions against magic.

I think some magic damage should be mitigated by armor, or that certain types of armor should increase resistance vs. magic, as well as shields being able to block it.
This could make the different types of magical damage have strengths and weaknesses - damage health for example might bypass armor, but generally deal less damage, while fire would be mitigated a lot more but deal more damage to unprotected enemies. Enchanting served this purpose to some degree, but how many NPCs wore anything enchanted with magic resistances?

#2. More powerful magic needs significant drawbacks outside of magicka cost.

I don't think this a good way to balance it at all. More powerful spells need to have limitations that don't hamper mages with tedious potion chugging. They should have cast times(reduced as you advance in skill of course). Another possibility would be cooldowns on stronger effects so you have to use them wisely. Invisibility for example - from the perspective of a rogue/thief type character, this spell effect alone almost made stealth obsolete in Oblivion, sneak attack modifiers were it's only saving's grace. Every spell effect being cast in exactly the same amount of time with the same ease, with no limitations other than magicka, just doesn't make sense and isn't balanced.

#3. Disruption.

Any damage in general should have some chance of disrupting a cast depending on the caster's skill level and maybe endurance/willpower, but certain weapons/items could go a lot further - choking powders for example.

#4. The spell system and/or creation system needs more limits

Saying this makes me a little sad as there's some fun inherent in abusing custom spell creation, but it's best for the gameplay. Or, maybe the custom spell creation could just have some more reasonable limitations for certain spell effects - I'd like spell creation to be as fun and versatile as possible, just don't want that versatility to be as imbalancing as it was in previous games.

#5. Potion drinking needs to be an action.

This has been suggested many times, and it would really help game balance as well as make combat more realistic and challenging. Alchemy isn't quite the same as spell casting but I'm lumping it in here with other magic concerns anyway. Being able to instantly save yourself by chugging powerful potions without any risk is cheesy. Trying to pull out a bottle of something and swig it in combat should involve some risk, some exposure, some chance of failure if you're struck while in the process.

Bring back spell failure chance.

Problem fixed.

Not at all, giving suggestions for balancing magic without irritating and/or tedious mechanics like this and chugging potions is the goal of this thread.

I like this idea because it made you feel like you had to practice more in the skill in order to have a less chance of failing the spell.

"Irritating"

In order to balance something out it must first have an upside and then a downside. This downside is technically "Irritation".

I don't see a problem with over-powering in single player games. You don't have to do any of it, and half the time you don't discover it yourself anyway. It's not hurting anyone so leave it in for us to play with.

As long as they overhaul spell failure so you won't constantly be failing a starting spell like in MW I'm cool with it. Also what they could do is not allow you to stack Weakness to Magicka and Weakness to Elemental Damage. For example:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Weakness_to_Magic

And how exactly is a chance for spell failures more irritating/tedious than:
A. NPCs using shields to block all your magic attacks until you are out of magicka or
B. Increased cast times for powerful spells or
C. Being interrupted by damage or
D. Limiting the available options for custom spells or
E. Waiting for potion drinking animations to finish?

Answer, it isn't. It is just as annoying and tedious, but it has the advantage of being a mechanic that has already been used (successfully) to limit the potency of magic.

hardcoe mode for Fallout New Vegas makes healing occur over time rather than instantaneously. Mods did the same for Oblivion. Such a feature in Skyrim would minimize imbalance caused by healing potions.

if #1, #3 or #4 are in i will not buy the game.

I like the disruption idea. Maybe taking damage while casting increases spell failure chance? And also what Huckleberry said about potions restoring over time, instead of instantly.

I really wouldn't want to see the spell creation feature limited, if anything it should be more versatile and powerful, I really like messing around and creating unique spells.

Because it's random.
You, as the player, have some control over ABCD and E. You can't account for spell failure, you'll just occasionally get screwed over by it randomly.

Forum-goers shouldn't look at this thread as something negative. The point isn't to destroy the mage experience in TES. The point is to make being a mage more challenging, and more entertaining overall for the player. I think limitations may be a poor choice of words, but there should be a risk/reward system of sorts in place. Whether it's having the occasional spell fail, or preventing mages from moving while casting a spell. I'm sure BGS could come up with a creative way to make mage less "easy" and more "fulfilling" while maintaining all the benefits and customization.

Also a good idea. More powerful spells should be channeled rather than instant.

Random is about as far from tedious as you can get and still be in the English language. Irritating? Yes. But never tedious. Of course, when everything else is also irritating I will choose the least tedious option every time.

im pretty sure i read in yesterday's update that you can get a perk for shields that protect you against elemental spells...

you need to keep up-to-date on things before going on about them like this...

they are obviously doing things for the warriors out there, so stop worrying about it.

Try and play Oblivion on max difficulty.
You can kill the enemy with two spells(weakness to elemental magic,and elemental damage),but normally it will consume all your mana.
What is really overpowered is a summoning spells,on lvl 6 you can summon daedroth and he will do the job for you.With Oblivions level-scaling system it was really overpowered.

You don't think it's ever tedious casting the same spell multiple times to get it to work?

I played Morrowind, spell failure was tedious(not all spells are cast in combat so the random element was often meaningless as a means of making casting riskier) and it was irritating.

Rather have any limitation than spell failure. Nothing more annoying than having a computer roll dice to determine your survival, except very limited instances (absobtion, reflection ) . Computer says no. Not fun, and I don't care if it was in Morrowind. Limit magicka regen, the disruption sounds like a good idea, but please no dice rolls for this.

I think your on to something here. I would not leave it as clear cut as "pass" or "fail".

In Fallout:NV your weapon would jam constantly if the condition was bad.

They could apply that to the spell system. If you are not as skilled as you need to be, then shooting that fireball should take LONGER then normal. That would encourage the person to train up so they can use that spell.

The fail technique is a little too much. We need something that is forgiving, but allows the player to work towards that perfection.

Chance of Failure:
I always found it added a level of excitement. 'Come on little guy, we'll practise more when we get out of this mess. Right now we just. Need. One. More. Whoosh". Hehe, great fun.

As for overpowered:
Was magic overpowered in Ob? Was it overpowered in Mw? Surely it depends on how the character was built?

I mean, it was certainly possible to create a powerful mage if you you insisted on power playing the stats but the same can be said for combat. If you ignore the power play, or Oblivion arms race, and just build your character the way you think s/he would progress through the world experience then you could end up feeling totally under powered. Mw got away with this by virtue of the mix of levelled and fixed scaling, Ob dropped you right in the brown and smelly.

I do not think the problem is as simple as 'magic is overpowered'. I think that there are some who do not like or understand certain ways of playing the game and they are all too ready to voice their opinion. I also think if a major investment in any skill or ability ends up in the creation of an over, or under powered char that there is fundamental fault in the design of the game itself.

I would maintain only certain spells are game breaking.

But stacking up on reflect, magic resists and spell absorption makes all magic worthless.

IMO they should toss the idea of % based resistances, instead have various protective enchantments/spells last longer, but mitigate a set amount of damage from each spell, or have them absorb a set amount of damage and then they're gone.

For example -

A. Resist Fire 11 = All fire spells do 11 less damage to you.
or
B. Resist Fire 75 = Absorbs up to 75 points of fire damage. (This could not be an enchant for obvious reasons, so perhaps A is better...)

I almost totally agree.

balance magic and alchemy by not making them lame potion spell spam fests

although the armor reducing magic damage is no, unless it has resist enchant

and BTW make resistance cap for God's sake 100% resist is just lame.

Added a poll, although I got a lot of flak for some of the suggestions I'd like to see which appeal most to players if any.
..and because everyone clearly loves polls.