I'm looking forwards to Fallout 4. First game I ever pre-ordered, in fact. But, upon contemplation, I've come to see a set of major problem, at least for me.

And that problem is that you, Bethesda, are far too controlling. In most other franchises, I wouldn't mind. But this is Fallout, not Mass Effect.

Firstly, that we are forced to play as a heterosixual (or bisixual) person who marries, has a child, stays in the relationship with his or her spouse, and are comfortable with having a robotic butler. This severely limits the amount of character personalities one can have; you can't play as a gay/asixual, you can't play as a [censored], you can't play as an uncharismatic sod, you can't play as someone majorly irresponsible, you can't play as a technophobe, and you can't play as a psychopath. There's more, and mix-and-matching, but you get the idea.

All of this wouldn't be much of an issue, since we're going to get alternative start mods. However, that does bring me to my second point; with a voiced character, the transition from vanilla to modded content will be incredibly jarring; it's one thing to have NPCs who are not voice acted, or are poorly voice acted, but it's quite another to have your character's voice suddenly vanish (or change, and maybe even change genders). (And I'm not even going into detail about the potential issues with the quality of the voice acting, the accents, the voice itself, vocal inflation, mannerisms, etc., all of which can have severely negative consequences on the player's experience).

And that problem is further exacerbated by the new conversation UI; you can no longer see what you're saying, and your conversation options are limited. This will lead people to choose options that, had they known what their character were about to say, they would not. There is no excuse for this, in my opinion; the other problems have legitimate reasons for them (though I disagree strongly with them), but this change is a needles, harmful, confusing & frustrating change.

All together, this amounts to far fewer stories built by players; unless we can get a better conversational UI, and remove the player voice, Alternative Start & new quest mods will be severely crippled, and will not be able to return the control you have taken from players with regards to their characters.

I'm sure all of this has been said before, however I can not see a thread which connects these problems, and the implications they have on modding.

-Edit- I must be blind, for I just now saw the following thread: http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1521196-the-implications-of-a-pre-determined-character/

I think a way to counteract this problems are the ways we play: what we do in this new environment, 200 years after you have slept inside an ice cube.

Yes, limiting the backstory as a pre-war father/mother who doesn't have any family anymore is limiting our creations, but creativity is not only limited to our backgrounds: we could just simply RP the character after he/she have emerged from the vault.

The shock of coming to terms waking up in the wasteland 200 years after you have slept cold down in the vault, with your family dead, is not something to be laughed at. The PC could react to this in ways that are not limited to:

-Becoming psychotic due to not being able to cope with the new environment and filled with deep angst and anger for not being able to live like before the war

-Becoming sociopathic due to several reasons similar to above, or a deep mistrust for every wastelander

-Becoming deranged

-Basically becoming everything that we wish the PC would become

It is not history that dictates who we are: it is what we do now that dictates who we are

And as for the dialogue option, yes, it is quite problematic: I am with you on that, and I prefer the old dialogue system. But it just tingles my curiosity: if I choose this option, what will my character say? I think that's the perk of the new dialogue system, because you will keep guessing on what you will say (and the developers could add a snarky/hilarious/intriguing line to what we say ^^)

I've never understood the interest in having a blank slate PC, and a blank story; and would much rather have an intricately devised branching scenario with an established character. To that end Witcher has always seemed the perfect RPG... at least prior to them screwing the gameplay up after Witcher 1.

Haven't people got bored of that argument already ? Not only all views about it have been written, but also there is also at least one thread about the same thing but with different wording.

Some people will whine no matter what.

Even if Bethesda decided to make the player character so empty and blank so as to not even have an intro video or quest, and made a game where after you click on 'start game' on the title screen, the game loads and you immidately dropped in the middle of the wilderness, without any video / cutscene / dialogue, being allowed to go wherever you want and do what you want from the first second, people would come in these forums and make threads like "Hey Bethesda why are you taking my freedom away and made my character to start in the wilderness ? That means that my player is homeless and you are forcing me to play a homeless guy but I want to be playing a rich guy!!!! boo hooo!!!!!! You are so restrictive!!!"

Under the hood, their real market is for empowerment fantasy, and it appears that any fixed aspect [at all] is seen as being controlled; as having one's power trip infringed upon. All this at the (welcome ) expense of having a decently laid out narrative, quest structure, and character. Their market cannot seem to tolerate a mortal PC with not just strengths (as Bethesda provides), but with weaknesses that serve to inhibit the ways they can approach and deal with a situation... IE. The foundations of roleplaying itself; how would this character react and/or solve the situation... Superman would react one way, Stephen Hawking would react in another. Most PC's are supposed to be somewhere in between.

I still wonder where people got the idea that Fallout is about blank slate player characters.

It never happened before New Vegas and it seems that everyone these days think it's true.

Seriously another one? Bethesda could put your character in the middle of the desert with no back story or idea of how he got there and people would still complain, "Bethesda you svck and ruined my immersion, I wanted to start in the middle of a forest."

Posted before I saw this, glad I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

Except you still have a pre-determined voice, mannerism, etc., so you can't RP what you want. And the amount of emotional/psychological trauma is unlikely, to me, to change a family person into an amoral scientist who wants to study & perfect the FEV, for an example.

Furthermore, who you were dictates your history; together they form you who are.

And for your last bit: it wouldn't have been complicated to either colour-mark your conversational options, or add a little marker, to inform you as to what sort of reply it was, in the old system.

Why you would want to guess as to what your character is saying, however, is entirely beyond me.

If Bethesda wanted to make a witcher-like series, they should have made a new IP, or a new series. That way, those of us that want a blank protagonist (Like, say, the ones in Fallout..) could play Fallout, and those that want a more controlled story could play that other game. Fallout: Stories or something, whatever.

And I absolutely loathe everything about the Witcher games, other than the setting. We're not going to see eye-to-eye on this.

We, who play and enjoy Fallout/TES games because of their freedom and open nature, are making our own tales, our own characters, our own narratives. This has not been a series of interactive novels, and I decry the decision to move the game in that way.

There is a massive diference between "This is where you grew up. Neither you nor your character have a say in this." and "This is who you were, what you did, how you were and where you lived as an advlt. Your character decided this, but you have no say in this."

In the previous four Fallout games, all that was decided was that you grew up somewhere, and, at the start of the game (or near the start), you were pushed out into the world. That is where we get the idea that Fallout has featured blank-slate characters.

(Pardon the double-post; was going to write this down here, then edit my post, but forgot to.)

And, regarding the "complaining about complaining" posts: It's almost as if people wish to voice their concerns/suggestions, to know more about an upcoming product, to try to either get an understanding of why, or to convince someone to change the product to be more to their liking. It's almost as if these forums are here for people to discuss matters, and that discussion also includes criticism.

And, besides, it doesn't matter what you criticize, there will always be someone who complains that you criticize anything at all. The game is, after all, 100% perfect, and there can be no worries or disagreement over it.

Hahaha good point. There was a saying from a former leader of my country: Never forget your history. Yup, you arguments are correct. But unfortunately it's already been decided. No matter how you and me whine, it will not change except they delay the release to make the change (which is highly undesirable)

As for the conversation part, your ideas are good: the options do lack further explanation on what you will say. They should also put brackets like [Science] and [Barter] like in the old system. Maybe Beth's decision on "streamlining" the dialogue option is quite... unnecessary after all.

Oh, and for the guessing part? It's just because i'm curious XD Like for example, if a canned fish is only labeled "Fish" without any explanation of what fish is inside, wouldn't you be curious?

What blank slate in the Fallout games? In FO3, the PC's history was set in stone; it was the same in Fallout 2, the PC was the grandchild of the Fallout PC, and grew up in the village founded by their grandparents. In Fallout, the PC was almost as set as in FO3; an institutionalized 20 year old, born and educated in the vault, with absolutely all of their friends and family ~and enemies, within a half mile of them for their whole life.


*In the New Vegas spin-off, the PC was a working mail carrier, with past experience and acquaintances [a history]; and one day they got mugged en route... Then the game starts.

Yes, their HISTORY. Not them. Not their personality. Re-read my post about "things character can & can't control" please.

I did read your post; I don't understand your exact point though... Please clarify, I'm sure others would benefit from it as well.

*But this sparks a question:
Is it your opinion that any title that you want to play, should support your idea of a blank slate character and freedom? (or be wrong)
As opposed to any title supporting that style of play instantly being one you'd want to play ~because of that.

None of the original or subsequent Fallout titles supported a total blank slate PC; though more so than the Witcher did, certainly.

Then, we could simply ignore their history and RP the character as we want right? It's the same like FO4...

Now, let's for example, assume that our character has a blank slate. We don't even know who we are, and what we are doing in the vault. Then, you simply go out, and do quests and story blablabla...

Besides RP-ing, which obviously not all people like doing, doesn't make the PC's characterisation a bit... Weak?

I am for RP-ing, but sometimes having a character with a pre-determined backstory and even voice is OK. It's just another challenge to overcome for a truly good RP

Wow, thanks OP.

I never would have known being a successfully married heterosixual individual was something to be ashamed of and "creatively limiting" without this insightful commentary. I'll make sure I divorce my wife, disown my children, and run off into the hills to embrace a lifestyle of violence and hedonism.

I'm reasonably sure that we'll still be able to be nice, be a jerk, be helpful, be harmful, etc. Via our choices. Defining our personality.

It's curious, but I [personally I mean] would define both of those as the same thing, and not a challenge to overcome for a truly good RP.
The pre-determined backstory and even voice would be the character, and what to roleplay. This is actually why I like Witcher in the first place.

*Meaning: I can play a blank slate PC if the rest of the game is good enough... But the farther away from blank [just shy of totally fixed future], the better, IMO.
In TES, it was the enigmatic prisoner background that disappointed me the most. Even DungeonSiege started you off as a dispossessed farmer with a grudge; that was at least something.

You can't choose your parents, where you grow up, etc. in real life; you decide what you do. In sandbox games, such as Fallout and TES, I am perfectly fine with a set-up such as has been previously; you don't get to choose your parents or where you grew up, but all your choices (well, except for leaving earlier or being so extremely anti-social that you'd get murdered before the game begins) are yours to make.

In FO4, however, you, as a player, do not get to decide all your character's choices. Your character has chosen to get married, have a child, etc., and this implies a personality which you, as a player, had no hand in.

I am not sure, at the moment, how better to clarify the difference between circumstances that are out of your characters hands, and decisions made by the character within those circumstances.

Oops thank you for pointing the paradox in my statement hehe -w-'''

Why make it harder for us to tell our own story?

Because you can't please everyone. Every game Bethesda makes, one group or another is going to criticize the game for whatever reason. This is a reoccurring theme. The last Fallout game, Fallout 3 was heavily criticized for it's story telling, or lack of, and now it seems they've added more story. Which, of course is a problem for another group of people.

The only thing I can suggest is wait for the mod that makes the character detached from the family setting or alters it somehow. I'm sure someone will make one since this seems to be a big issue. There's also head canon. Make up your own back story - like they've actually been best friends since grade school. One night at a party they had too much to drink, got a little affectionate and carried away and... oops. Things like that happen in real life.

I think it's that a section of the "RP" crowd is defining RP as "play whatever/ANY character I can dream up". Like the guy in the thread the other day bemoaning that the married-with-kid background won't let him play, oh, his Feral Teenage Psychopath Baseball Player character idea. They want full blank slate, so that they can throw literally any "there's no wrong ideas in brainstorming!" character concept onto it.

Honestly, of the FO games, this one seems to be giving you the cleanest slate of any of them. In the others, you had family and friends alive and well, people who needed your help. In FO4, as far as you know, everyone you ever knew is dead, the world you knew has been destroyed, and you are all alone.

ETA- forgot NV. That one has a pretty blank slate too, other than the whole "revenge for trying to kill me" angle.

This.

That's what I like about the backstory of this game. Bethesda literally gives you a clean slate for you in order to transform your character into any kind of character you want by destroying almost every traces of your past. You are discarding (or holding onto) your past, and because of it, you are the one that are now. A new person, or a person who is embittered/clinging to his/her memory.

Thank you for the response. I understand your points now. Still, I see the PC as whoever they were before the game started. In FO4, that's who your PC was (200 years before).

You mention social extremes getting you murdered, but it could well be that in the Vault, that not marrying is just one such social extreme. As players we must accept the other [spouse] as part of the PC's past ~for whatever reasons existed those 200 years back.

Perhaps. My impression was that it might be just "play whatever", with a PC personality that psychologically morphs on the spot to reflect player whim.