Why not just remove them all? : V - Skyrim

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:10 am

Okay, so Intelligence as a stat probably should have been removed anyway, or just added into character creation and nothing else because you can't actually "raise intelligence" and all the stat did, in the practical sense, was add to Magicka. And I agree that intelligence was a poor choice for examples.

What stat or stats in particular, gpstr, do you feel deserved to remain in the game, or would have worked especially well alongside the new perk system? Endurance, for instance, is completely covered by the new health/stamina/magicka system, and Speed, it seems, can be covered under skills, based on the perks we've heard so far. Which stats do you feel are not fully compensated for?

On an unrelated note, I like it when there are attributes in rpgs, but in general I think the numbers and benefits should remain unseen. After all, when I exercise, I'm not adding points to a chart. I just exercise and hope I'm getting stronger. The only way for me to tell whether or not I've gained any strength is for me to do something strength-intensive.
Skyrim's system isn't this, but it seems like a step in that direction.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:29 am

Apparently I am supposed to be arguing for perks AND attributes, but won't admit it. Not true. This is a personal thing, my opinion nothing more, but I have never been happy with attributes in games. In the original dungeons and dragons, you rolled your stats, and they didn't change in normal play, you were stuck with them, you didn't get stronger, or wiser, and that was that, your character.

In TES, all the attributes were changeable, you could level up whichever you wanted, only the amount per level changing.

Not happy with either. Why? It makes sense that you can become stronger by fighting, that your personality could increase slightly by becoming practiced at persuading people, but how the hell do you become more intelligent at all, let alone starting off as a muscle bound Nord warrior, then eventually having an intelligence of 100, the same maximum as an Altmer mage?

If there was an attribute system that had racial minimum/maximums, limited ability to increase ( how does a Breton end up with three and a bit times more endurance than they started with? ), and some such as intelligence and luck unable to be improved at all, then I would whole-heartedly agree with attributes, but as it is I would rather stick with skills, perks, and health/stamina/magicka increases.
You can learn to cast spells more efficiently, and learn to harness more magical energy, but you won't become more intelligent, unless you define intelligence as only being more proficient with magic, hey presto!, increased magicka is the same thing.

And before someone calls me out for saying 'you don't want endurance to increase, but health is ok', in the original Dand D it said something to the effect of hit points being a mixture of stamina, health, combat experience, the ability to dodge, and just not being quite so in the way of that axe swing anymore. You can't become three times as tough, you can become three times better at surviving.

Sorry about the rant, but I don't like being told what I am thinking.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:46 am

A level 1 orc and a level 1 wood elf walk into a bar. The bartender makes them a proposal that he will make them both level 20 with one catch: They both must take the same perks and the same sword skill and the same health/magicka/stamina increases. Who's sword strike would yield more damage if they accept this offer?

Answer: with the current perk system they both do the same damage. Without their starting and constant attributes they hit the same.

This is a joke in more ways then one.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:50 am

What did Intelligence do in Oblivion besides affecting how much magicka you had? As far as I know, nothing. Why exactly do you need an arbitrary number telling you how intelligent he is? Make a character and roleplay thinking, "my character will be dumb." Then whenever you choose level up bonuses, avoid magicka (because your character is not intelligent enough to gain these), and choose perks that don't seem like they will be indicative of an intelligent character. Same can be said for pretty much any other attribute except for luck.

And then, by a roundabout path, we're back to the OP - if I'm to simply make believe that my character is dumb, rather than being given a representation of that by the game, why not simply make believe that the character and the world exist at all? What do I even need the game for? They might as well just cut everything and sell me a piece of paper that says, "Make believe you have a character and make believe he's in Skyrim. Go."

The simple fact is that it's the game's job to provide information to aid in that make believe. I believe attributes to be important pieces of information, in and of themselves, and I find them to be useful tools to aid in that make believe, in and of themselves. For that reason, I lament their passing.

That's all.

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:30 pm

Yeah, I was pretty much guessing on some of that stuff just based on the information we have been given. So in that sense, It seemed to me that all the attributes are mostly still there, just folded into the 3 and that skill attributes would be separate. The reason I made that post was because I keep seeing people suggest that you'll raise things like speed or intelligence with perks which seemed incorrect. Right? So I'd give a fairly basic and logical (as far as I can tell) summation as to what it's more likely to be.

Yeah, I honestly think speed can be handled in a very simple way through stamina. Sprinting will cost stamina, and we can raise stamina directly. If you want a fast character, raise your stamina several times at level up and your character will be able to run for longer periods of time. A character that can sprint longer will naturally be faster, unless the stamina regen rate is fixed like in oblivion. I kind of think the regen rate for stamina/magicka will be a fixed percent per second of your total stamina/magicka, so even when you raise one of them, the bar will fill up to total at the same speed. I just can't think of any perk for any one skill that could replace willpower, so I'm guessing it's just going to be folded into total magicka.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:13 am

And then, by a roundabout path, we're back to the OP - if I'm to simply make believe that my character is dumb, rather than being given a representation of that by the game, why not simply make believe that the character and the world exist at all? What do I even need the game for? They might as well just cut everything and sell me a piece of paper that says, "Make believe you have a character and make believe he's in Skyrim. Go."

The simple fact is that it's the game's job to provide information to aid in that make believe. I believe attributes to be important pieces of information, in and of themselves, and I find them to be useful tools to aid in that make believe, in and of themselves. For that reason, I lament their passing.

That's all.

You do have that information. You have a magicka stat, six magic skills plus some other skills that require intelligence like alchemy, smithing, and speechcraft, and you have perks for all of those intelligent skills. This is much more like intelligence in real life, where you can't just base your entire intelligence on a single number, not even IQ.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:10 am

These attribute threads are worse than the spear threads.

Can't you use a search funtion? Or must every member voice their complaint by making a topic so they can get attention? This complaining has been done before, let's move on.

Christ.

You'll probably nag at me for not contributing, so I'll add in 1 thing; Attributes are IN. They still govern gameplay. Perks actually add even MORE customization and specilaization, and Todd is trying to get this through some people, but they just can't seem to understand. Todd, who DEVELOPS the game and knows what he's talking about. If someone who's been working on TES since 1994 thinks some aspect of the game is redundant, then it's more than likely redundant. When we are talking about game mechanics, it all comes down to Developer > Fan. Not to say fans can't contribute, but when someone knows more about video games then you, listen to him; He's not being all HERP DERP.

Hmm, I think I said more than I want to. Oh well. *Flamers inc*

It's not as if Todd has been entirely honest with the community in the past, and I tried to make it clear I'm not even complaining about the changing of elements, just pondering why they've been dragging it out so long, since it seems to divide the community.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:29 pm

Alright let me take a whack at this :celebration:

Daggerfall To Morrowind. the removale of skills could be attributed to engine change and practicality right?

Skills --- We had a plethora of skills, but they were "folded" and given alternatives in the form of spells, of course now everyone has to have spells to utilize these "folded" specializations. Centaurian, Deadric, Dragonish, Elvish, faeri, giantish, harpy, impish, nymph, Spriggan, streetwise, etiquette All were skills that allowed you to talk/infiltrate to various factions and creatures and make them none hostile, now Charm spells and speechcraft handled that all the way through Oblivion. Orcish wasnt "needed" anymore because now they were apart of the empire and spoke Cyrodillic, Centaurs don't exist and apparently now only Dremora could speak in Morrowind and Oblivion pre Shiv Ilse.

Climbing, Running, Jumping, Dodging, stealth, backstabbing disquise, pickpocket, critical strike, swimming were also all individual skills they were "folded" into their respective decendents of Athletics, Acrobatics, sneak and security. climbing never made a return.

Thaumaturgy I forgot about.

So yeah play styles took a hit.

Morrowind to Oblivion however was probably the most comprehensive of subtractions as it did not have the excuse of Practicality and "removing redundant skills"

Skills -- Spears, Enchanting, Medium armor, axes. why where these removed? did it make sense? since when is a axe a mace? last I new one delivers crushing damage and another cutting, and now I HAVE to be apart of the Mages guild to enchant? and all of a sudden I get to a pedastal and i can enchant like a Pro, oh ok no problem. hmm so Light armor doesnt suit me and heavy armor is a bit to much....oh my its either or, darn
Weapons - All throwing weapons and Cross bows.

and oh yeah, Attributes are still in, but just health magicka and Stamina, some people are using the Intelligence = Magicka, um did it not also matter for SECURITY? CONJURATION? ALCHEMY AND ENCHANTING? what about personality thats an attribute, what defines my character then? hmm? its the people who don't bother to look or are so lulled to Todds PR talk that don't address these factors and claim that those thinking otherwise are irrational idiots.

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:38 pm

Yeah, I honestly think speed can be handled in a very simple way through stamina. Sprinting will cost stamina, and we can raise stamina directly. If you want a fast character, raise your stamina several times at level up and your character will be able to run for longer periods of time. A character that can sprint longer will naturally be faster, unless the stamina regen rate is fixed like in oblivion. I kind of think the regen rate for stamina/magicka will be a fixed percent per second of your total stamina/magicka, so even when you raise one of them, the bar will fill up to total at the same speed. I just can't think of any perk for any one skill that could replace willpower, so I'm guessing it's just going to be folded into total magicka.

Yeah, that's what I've gathered. We'll be getting more details as time goes on though. It seems like people are really freakin over this though... ya know?.... And it seems unnecessary at this time. Of course, I'm certain I will love this game as I have few reasons to think I'll be disappointed based on what I've been hearing, whereas some others are feeling possibly different about it. :shrug:

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:27 pm

It's not as if Todd has been entirely honest with the community in the past, and I tried to make it clear I'm not even complaining about the changing of elements, just pondering why they've been dragging it out so long, since it seems to divide the community.

Bethesda's intention isn't to slowly turn the game away from being an RPG and towards being an action game. They try to make the mechanics better with every installment. Sometimes this means getting rid of redundancies. You can still do everything that you could do in Oblivion, plus more.

Besides, I could name at least a dozen great RPGs that have less than 3 stats, 18 skills, and 280 perks.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:24 am

It's not as if Todd has been entirely honest with the community in the past, and I tried to make it clear I'm not even complaining about the changing of elements, just pondering why they've been dragging it out so long, since it seems to divide the community.

I was thinking of that as well while I wrote the comment. Even so, I'm 99.9% sure it'll work out.

Oh, and I didn't mean for that comment to be a personal attack, I apologize

I was just venting my overall distress on the general theme at hand here, which you even stated "divides the community."

Even though it's a ratio of like 4:1

;)

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:57 am

Well the only thing that you should have to imagine is intelligence as it really isn't a tangible concept that you can see. You can see someone be agile and you can see someone who is strong. Mainly the problem with attributes is that everyone would basically fill out the same stats to not fall behind in the game. Two swordsman are always going to have willpower, strength, endurance and speed maxed out. There is just no difference there. However, one swordsmen may decide he is agile and be dodging attacks, so he doesn't need as much health so he chooses to build up stamina instead of health when he levels while the tough swordsmen decides he is going to raise health. Beyond that, then you have other things in perks like the agile swordsmen may pick perks that boost his survivability while the tough swordsmen might pick perks that make him do massive damage so he can burst things down. There is just so much customization with the new system and no, the old attributes aren't compatible.

Mainly, look at it like this. Imagine we write on a chalk board, Old attributes and what it's effects are and then go to the other side of the chalk board and then on the other side we write down New system and what it's effects are. This new system has all the effects that the old attribute system did, so erase the effects under the 8 attributes. Then we right 280 perks to choose from and only being able to choose about 50 per character. Now what does the old attributes have left under them? Nothing. The only way to keep them is to make up some system and then you would need a reason for that system. Why make a new system just to keep in those 8 words? That's the main thing here, the only argument for keeping the old attributes is because they were originally in the game but the problem is they have absolutely no ability now because the new system has their effects and you can't have the old attributes keep the same effects because then your doubling up on it. See what I mean? The eight attributes come down to being just eight words in the new game and words aren't a game mechanic.

See... this is why I so rarely bother responding to you. There's nothing in all of that other than fallacies, empty rhetoric, diversions, equivocations and straw men. It's not even worth my time to try to sort through it all.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:36 am

And then, by a roundabout path, we're back to the OP - if I'm to simply make believe that my character is dumb, rather than being given a representation of that by the game, why not simply make believe that the character and the world exist at all? What do I even need the game for? They might as well just cut everything and sell me a piece of paper that says, "Make believe you have a character and make believe he's in Skyrim. Go."

The simple fact is that it's the game's job to provide information to aid in that make believe. I believe attributes to be important pieces of information, in and of themselves, and I find them to be useful tools to aid in that make believe, in and of themselves. For that reason, I lament their passing.

That's all.

Its still make-believe even you have a number. Mechanics that serve no purpose should be cut. Thats all attributes are, a mechanic.
If the perk system is well done it could allow for more customisation of characters than attributes which were often rather vague. A diplomat, a warleader, a conman and a courtesan all had high personality and speechcraft but nothing else to differentiate them. It was also annoying and silly that for a warrior to be strong-willed he needed magic skills.

Well this thread has served one purpose at least. I'm more optimistic about the removal of attributes than I was a while ago.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:29 am

Eh, I started to try and clean up this thread, starting with a post from one person who is apparently soooo tired of this argument that he felt obliged to participate. And I feel like it went down hill. Lots of sniping. Some of you, and you know who you are, should put each other on ignore. :stare:

I have to make dinner and get some stuff done, if I have time to really review and clean up, I might.