I think that sums things up wonderfully.

Well during my first 300 hour foray into Vanilla Oblivion and its concurrent add-ons, i found the world very immersive and exciting, of course this was before I saw the wonder of Modblvion. I guess some people see Bethesda's creations as huge sandboxes which essentially provide the framework for more "in-depth" creations. My guess as to why some would consider it generic is due to its immense size, very hard to make that much content and make it all unique. For the most part its generic fantasy forest with some scattered mountains and essentially 4 types of dungeons being caves, forts, ayleid ruins and Oblivion gates. Thats not what makes it generic for me however, for me its more about game mechanics that arent very "deep". A prime example of this is in the magic system, a level 1 Flare spell works the same as a Mastery level fireball spell when in most games the mastery spell would have some different effects and be noticeably different. Also within the guild system and npc interactions this generic feel can be found. However the sandbox that is created is still amazing none the less. Just think of all the features that are often not seen in many "open" world RPG's. Enchanting, Alchemy,Spell Creation, Guild progression, exploration, countless dungeons, gear and class combos. Not to mention the ability to be and do whatever you want, want to spend 3 hours of real time clearing out a dungeon and setting it up as your home, you can do that. Want to be a goblin hating thief who uses illusion and daggers, why you can do that too. Hey, maybe you just want to live as a beggar and troll sewers of the IC, well that options there as well. In no other RPG are options this broad and often this immersible. Sure games like DoA may boast a well crafted story, a fantastic class progression system and unique dungeons and quests, but once you choose your class the game is still pre-determined for you. In fact its this freedom first formula that allows many of these mods to be created and also brings the developer under harsh criticism from various source. But hell, the game is popular and has one of the most loyal fanbases for any media that ive ever seen so they must be doing something right.

Hopefully with the ability to create a 2nd game for the Xbox 360, something which Bethesda hasnt been able to do since Arena, they will be able to find a nice balance between graphics, in depth game mechanics and with this new engine a much more stable and interesting world.

Edit: The depth of this game is really found in the eye of the player and also within the entire universe that Bethesda has crafted, just look at the lore section of the forums if you dont believe me.

Yes, it is well crafted. However, well crafted doesn't mean it can't be generic. Something can be be amazing technically, for instance if I draw a tree very well, ie it looks like real life, but I don't put anything (any feeling, any thought, anything from me) in the drawing beside the reproduction of the tree.... well, it's a good drawing, but there's not much in it. Another example: I'm learning how to draw hands, and while my drawings of hands may look good technically, there are really very bland and generic since they are just exercises.
That's how I feel about Oblivion :shrug:

It could be argued that there is just as much lore in Oblivion as in Morrowind. Perhaps more.

However it may not seem that way to some who started with Morrowind because a lot of the lore is the same lore that is in Morrowind. And there is lots of new stuff to learn about like the Aylieds, Goblins and their background, the barriers with Oblivion, Sheogorath's background, the Brush of Truepaint, the Grey Fox, Ancestor Moths, Vampires, the unsubstantiated theory that Nirn is really a part of Oblivion, the history of the Imperial City include White Gold tower, lots of books, etc, etc, etc.

I don't get the comment that there is generic lore in TES IV.

Its true that many of the books are repeated from game to game so whichever you play the first will affect your impression, I'll give you that.
Still, much of the MQ and Mages Guild quests in MW was specifically about learning the lore. Apart from The Path of Dawn and Lifting the Vale the lore in Oblivion was just background. It wasn't worked into the quests.
Much of the most interesting lore was added by KotN and SI which were better in this regard than Oblivion itself.

I find myself agreeing with what Thomas Kaira said in his post about the culture, Oblivion Crisis and all that stuff.

I enjoyed ( and enjoying ) Oblivion, but IMHO, the only two parts when the Oblivion Crisis felt like something important, is when you hear about Kvatch, and in the battle near Bruma when the Great Gate opens. The rest is just meh. You walk around Cyrodiil and you're like, "Oh, the 348238th Oblivion Gate just opened here. I'm going to ignore it in 3... 2... 1... now.".

I don't want to sound like a troll, but if someone says that closing gates is just interesting and not because you get a Sigil Stone, I'm going to scream "EPIC LIES!" all over the boards.

Okay, I was just kidding, but aside from getting a new shiny Sigil Stone, there's no real reason to close the gates. Yes, they look menacing, but they don't FEEL like it.


Also, vanilla Oblivion Cyrodiil's caves have basically all the same kind of light colors and illuminations. That's why they look "generic". But I'm not really blaming the game about that, since that was caused by Morrowind being more... "alienish".

One point I think we're all missing is that the feeling that we've seen the same dungeon a thousand times, comes because Oblivion is one of the few games you play long enough to get that feeling.

There are so many games where you've done everything and been everywhere after 20 hours of play. Those can get away with only using assets once, and not building reusable tile-sets that can be re-assembled in multiple combinations, and so they don't come with Construction Sets that let you extend the game even further (and thus adding to the "generic" feeling). How long have you spent with EACH of your Oblivion characters? And how many times have you played through again with a different one?

Great posts here, everyone. I wish I had time to respond to everybody because there are posts that make a lot of sense to me now, even if I don't agree with all of them. I'll pick Sergiroth's post, just because it's the most recent and it brings up stuff others haven't commented on, yet.



At least we have the choice to ignore it though. I've played other games (on consoles, mind you) where you didn't have this choice. You MUST follow one path and one path only. Personally, I really dug coming up to a new gate, watching the sky go red, the dry thunder striking noises in the distance, etc. It got addicting for me, to be honest. I didn't close each and every gate I came upon, as I do have somewhat of a life. Maybe it's me, but the whole process of dealing with a new gate never got old. I'm actually missing them show up in my games after finishing the MQ recently. :confused:



Guess I'm a liar then. Lol. I love taking care of baddies. That reason alone is why I dug going in the gates, not so much the stones themselves. I love the challenge of sneaking up on Oblivion's enemies once I'm in the gate. Some of them are just bad-ass. They catch me by surprise occasionally, too.

The Sigil stones? both of my characters who did the MQ were in the Arcane University when they did the MQ. Both of them could make an item or weapon much more powerful than was offered by the Sigil Stones, therefore in most cases I wound up collecting the stone, but then immediately turning around and selling it after enchanting an item.

The Oblivion worlds are all generic though. Actually, I never brought this up in the OP, but if there's one thing that is generic, it certainly is the "other side" of the gate. I think I read at UESP that they used 7 different "worlds" or something



This makes sense. I brought this up (kinda) in the OP, though. There are some generic (repeated) features in the caves and forts for sure.

I respect your opinion, but with "because Oblivion is one of the few games you play long enough to get that feeling", it sounds like you're ignoring the existence of Morrowind and the other Elder Scrolls games.

Yeah, but that's completely besides the point though. I think it could be decently argued that Bethesda stepped their game up as far as blending regions together, but I think there are a few simple reasons for that. For one, the assets were all very similar, the rocks were just re-textures of the same mesh, and none of the regions were terribly different from each other anyways (from a design standpoint). Sure it does indeed look more mature as far as regions being blended together, but that's not because they've just done a better job (or tried harder) it's that each region was so terribly similar that they simply had to blend together well. The second reason I think is that Cyrodiil is much bigger in-game than Vvardenfell from Morrowind, so the blend radius was much larger, leaving for a broader transition.

What I think in the end is that Morrowind was just extremely artistic and wild and out there, but it had it's flaws (as far as transitions go), and Oblivion seemed to have taken an easy route (albeit beautiful), which in turn made it look much more mature design wise, but still lacking in that special artistic fantasy element*, leaving it to seem very mundane (or generic as some like to call it).

*this is of course speaking of the general landscape, I do realize Oblivion had many great fantasy elements in other parts of the world

If I understand the emerging general premise, Oblivion is generic because it lacks enough fantasy elements, lacks a sufficiently diverse landscape, quests are poorly done in a number of ways, and the dungeons have too many repetitive elements.

If those definitions are a valid basis for defining generic, then Oblivion may well be generic.

Of the above perceived faults, I disagree about fantasy content. I thought vanilla Oblivion got it spot on; lots of magic, the planes of Oblivion and Paradise. I really did not want Disney World. I wanted a medieval setting with epic overtones. I got that in spades.

As to landscape, clearly, Black Marsh could have included a bayou-like area with watery flats and maybe an alligator or two. A high dessert would not have gone amiss. Dunes anyone? Apart from that, I was satisfied with the landscape. On the other hand, the seasons were totally lacking. Maybe it rained a bit more during the winter; I'm not sure but there wasn't enough seasonal change for me to consciously distinguish summer from winter.

After the subtle, complex, evolving and convoluted main quest in Morrowind, quests in Oblivion were a let-down. I have never been slavish about quest-lines so on a personal basis quests are merely the developers way of getting you to go see all of the marvelous content the game has to offer. I see nothing wrong with going out and discovering on your own.

Every game I have ever seen reused graphic content. I don't expect that to ever change. Among the advanced subjects in art are the psychological visual effects and one of those has to do with clutter. Games reuse barrels and crates wholesale because they add visual clutter. You aren't really meant to focus on them, and the fact that you are aware of this repetition shows the game was captivating enough for you to take time to look past the clutter and actually consider crates. I agree with an earlier observation that Oblivion can hold you long enough to see the repetition. It's up to you whether you willfully ignore such things or not. The point is, it's unlikely the next game will do this much differently.

Oblivion's design reflects the compromises that reality tends to force on developers. They can change the choices of what to sacrifice and what to emphasize but the choices are often 'one-or-the-other-but-not-both'. I like the choices they made in Oblivion.

Yes, you do have the choice to ignore the MQ entirely if you want, but Bethesda did a rather bad job of making that choice known. You got forced into things right from the start when the Emperor himself gives you his amulet and you watch him die right in front of you, Kvatch is destroyed the instant you start the game, and the entire questline tries to make you feel like "you've gotta do this now! Now! NOW!"

There isn't a lot of room for the player to realize that he can ignore the quest because of how much pressure the developers are putting on him to finish it, and making the player feel like this questline CAN'T be ignored. To ignore the MQ feels like an act of defiance in this game, one that you will be punished for.

Morrowind didn't do that. Instead, the MQ was designed to make the player feel like he could complete it at his own pace. In between the MQ segments, the game actually specifically tells you to "go out and experience me" (though not quite that blatantly). In Oblivion, the MQ was designed to give you tunnel-vision, and make you think that nothing else mattered until the Crisis was over.

The forcefulness of this game was completely psychological. You can defy, and the game does allow you to defy, but it is still very forceful.

Well said. I will just add that what I usually do (on a new character) is drop off the amulet at Jauffre's abbey and then shortly thereafter I get the Collector quest (which has no "red arrow" on the compass while it is active). At that point I forget all about the MQ and I never again feel "pushed" to do it.

I find Jauffre's tone interrogative and offputting enough to easily drop the amulet on his desk and walk out on him. He can send his own damn Blades. Upon arrival at Kvatch, Savlian Matius tells me to stay away. I think he is wise and have no trouble following his advice. Voila, Main Quest complete. I think the developers were perfectly brilliant in providing these reasonable and convenient 'outs' for non heroic characters.

I much prefer the feel of Oblivion to the fun, but almost cartoonish Shivering Isles. I do wish the guild quest lines allowed for one to continue doing quests as just a normal guild member instead of (if completed) leading to becoming the head of the guild. Therefore, I always stop or pause guild progress at a key point for each quest line that a character embarks on.

Generic. Gee, I dunno. I sure do like the game though.

Well if you like it it must be doing something right :thumbsup: I'm not a huge fan of Oblivion but seeing how popular it is I am obviously in a minority and it's good to know so many like it. Generic is a pretty vague word anyway.

Just because a game is generic doesn't mean it can't be good. Call of Duty 4 is a perfect example of this.

Yes, I do agree with you that that particular spot is the best place to get out of the main quest. Basically, it's the time where you ask yourself if you really really really want to get involved. Once you do, however, there is no turning back. And then the game also starts getting REALLY pushy with the main quest, too (as we all know quite well).

What I like to do is deliberately draw out the main quest by setting myself level requirements for progression. For example, I must be at least level 5 before I can close the Kvatch Oblivion Gate, I must be level 10 before I travel to Lake Arrius Caverns, and I must be Level 35 before I can participate in the Battle of Bruma. It actually does a lot for this game to simply ignore the urgency the characters try to force down your throat and actually force YOURSELF to go through it at your own pace. I find it makes the Crisis a lot more believable to draw it out like that, as it allows for the stages to have a reasonable separation of time between them, which does wonders for making the Crisis more believable.

I am now almost two months into the game, 100 hours in, and I am only half done with the Main Quest. By my level requirement scale, I must be at least Level 40 before I am allowed to actually finish the Main Quest, so I still have a loooong way to go.

This has always been a problem in these games. It was worst in Morrowind, because there, once you finished a Guild questline and became leader, you hit a brick wall. There were no benefits, no special quests (excepting the Morag Tong), and nothing to really go by that you are actually in charge. Oblivion did try to fix this, but it wasn't quite what we were expecting. The leader benefits in Oblivion were much too gimmicky to be viable.

Hopefully Skyrim will finally get something interesting out for our guild leaders.