As I've said in other lockpicking threads....



...apparently I don't possess "the most basic motor skills", since I've played the many characters over the years, and I still have a decent chance of breaking 10+ picks on an Average lock.
:D

(That said, I didn't mind the picking minigame. Gave me a reason to build up my Security skill on my characters - need those higher skill levels to reduce how many tumblers fall when you break a pick.)

I liked Fallout 3's system. You had a lockpicking minigame, simple but fun. But what locks you could pick still depended on your skill level. If Skyrim has locks with level 1 to 100, and you can pick any locks that are below your security skill (or whatever skill lockpicking falls under this time), that would be good.

If you can name it, it's 100% guaranteed somebody will come onto these boards and slam it as "worst [fill in the blank] EVAH!!!"

One. Hundred. Percent. GUARANTEED.

And then you'll have a dozen other people who just jump on board with the hater and next thing you know there are 200-post threads of flames and [censored]ing.

:shrug:

I liked the minigames in OB. The speechcraft game was kind of meh, but I did like the lockpick game. I love Fallout's minigames. I want to keep minigames and allow player skill to factor. I'm playing the character, so why shouldn't I have any control over what they do?

I was not a huge fan of the mini games in Oblivion, I played them, but not with great pleasure.

The lockpicking game relied too much on manual dexterity (mine, not my character's; so that if I had one too many cups of coffee, I found it all but impossible, even at higher skill levels). I eventually resorted to the tactic of saving the game before each lockpicking attempt, auto-picking the lock, and then deciding whether what was beyond the lock was worth the number of broken picks it had cost me.

The persuasion mini-game didn't make logical sense to me in the context of the game - I could just re-run the sequence as many times as I needed to until I achieved the desired result. In "real" life I doubt if an NPC would just stand there and take my multiple attempts to manipulate them.

I would like to see the element of luck added to the equation - to the extent that if I really wanted to pick a lock, or persuade a character, or win a race that was above my level at the time, I could invest in a scroll or charm or somesuch that would increase but not necessarily guarantee my chances.

They're almost always poorly done in my experience. I still have nightmares about planet scanning....

I am looking forward to playing dice in TW2 though.

I love minigames.

I don't know why people in general hate them. I know why I do: often poorly implemeted and out of context. For example, check Witcher 2 (preview only) minigames in taverns. Do they contribute to a better game?

Hmmmm,
Nah.

Yes, they do.

Mass Effect 2 is a good example of poorly implemented minigames. And definately out of context.

The Speechcraft mini-game is kinda pointless. All you have to do is gauge response by facial expression and make certain that the smallest effect falls on the two responses that the NPC hates. You can max disposition in a matter of seconds.

The lock picking mini-game was just frustrating because my hand-eye coordination isn't the greatest. Fortunately, they supplied the auto-pick option, so that's how I get through it. I just wish lock picks didn't break every single time you failed. Maybe a chance of breaking based on a roll similar to that used for auto-pick would have been better and it would have made the actual lock-picking challenge more tolerable for me.

I like the fact that the The Skeleton Key doesn't break, but the skill boost it gives is ridiculous. I would have been happier with a pick that just doesn't break. (I know I could probably MOD this but... meh)

I haven't played Witcher 2. I have seen most if not all demos, though. I'm not too keen on that arm wrestling minigame (nor on the other one), the point being that even when they're well implemented and in context as these two seem to be they do tend to feel artifical and ackward.
It's a bit like dialogue. Minigames shouldn't be a mode you're in (quoting Todd). Ideally, they should be seamlessly integrated within general gameplay, which is a real technical challenge, i would asume.

The challenge of minigames is just not that interesting to me. Wii Sports does that kind of fun a lot better, if you're in the mood for it.

The kind of challenge I'm looking for in RPGs is generally more to do with how to develop my character, what I should do with said character, how I should approach each situation, and what I should definitely avoid for the time being.

I find the minigames in OB relatively easy (there seems to be a trick to the lockpicking to do with the sound effect played, and the speechcraft is just a simple min-max thing), and therefore they take a lot of the fun out of character development (in that a low security or speechcraft skill is no longer an issue).

I suspect that many people who find the minigames DIFFICULT may have a similar issue - i.e. regardless of skill it's impossible for them to get particularly good at lockpicking and speechcraft.

I've been thinking about it and I might like to see a Morrowind-esque style of lockpicking, but with a little influence from Neverwinter Nights 2. It would go like this. You approach a lock (door, chest, whatever) and with a lockpick (don't know if you would have to equip it or if having one or more in inventory would be enough) you take a knee in front of the lock and start a lockpicking animation (this is realtime not paused and where the NWN2 influence comes in). For the player you just have to hold down a button (not click a bunch of times like MW) and dependent on your skill you pick the lock. Lower skill on a higher lock requires much longer to attempt. There would be also a chance to break the pick and have to start over again, the chance going up the greater the difference between your Security skill and the lock level. I believe others have mentioned something like this as well.

Might not please everyone, but having it realtime and based on Security without having a window or something come up in front of you would also keep the player immersed in the game. Just watch out for the guards if you have Security of 5 on a very hard lock. You might be kneeling there for a while.

I see what you mean, but I think that the fighting and arm wrestling fit, because Geralt is a badass character. Who wouldn't want to brawl in a fantasy tavern Also, gambling is always a good way to earn some money and it fits the atmosphere. On the other side, in Mass Effect 2 the player is forced to play tedious minigames all the time. There are way too many minigames and by not playing them, you would lose a lot. It really breaks the flow of the game. I like optional minigames.

As far as I'm concerned, planet scanning and hacking were blatant filler content in ME2. I thought the speechcraft minigame in Oblivion was annoying. I didn't like boxing or gambling in The Wicher, but in TW2 gambling looks fun, as they have introduced some physics based gameplay. Boxing and arm wrestling seem kinda fun, but honestly they do look a little...gimmicky. And I'm not a fan of QTE's either.

Say you encounter a lock that requires 50 skill to open.

If you have a 50+ security skill it should auto-open. No picks. No mini-game. No nothing to get in the way.

If you have under 50 security skill the lock might as well be Fort Knox Mk2 without the key. Again no stupid picks and no absurd mini-game.



So yeah, kill mini-games. They're totally pointless, totally useless and make a mockery of your related skill stat.

They've mostly taken the 'character' out of combat. It's almost all player skill now.

The big question is, in a game that focuses a lot of player experience (exploration, etc) they have to focus on things that should involve high amounts of player skill versus things that should be handled by character skill. Combat is an obvious one for player skill as it makes it more fun and involved. You can apply character skills to some math and let the handling be the player. For things that are interaction with other characters and the game world, character skill would be preferable to a lot of players. I think Beth was more coming from the angle that players don't particularly enjoy leveling things like speechcraft or security, so they decided to make them more player skill rather than character skill.

As primarily an RPG rather than a simulator or any other kind of open world game (GTA, etc) this wasn't a particularly appreciated move, especially by the older players who are largely traditional RPG players.

I want a mini-game where I get to go in a drinking contest and also card games, things that can be done in the Pubs to give me a feeling of relaxing after a busy day dragon slaying.

Wait... how are they out of context?
You hack the safe by playing memory (which is better than playing frogger), and scan the surface of a planet by... scanning it.

Also, what's wrong with Whitcher? You can do things in a tavern that people tend to do in a tavern, play dice, and beating up other people. How is that out of context again?


Fine, who needs minigames anyway? We should do the same thing over and over again, without anything to add a bit of variation in it.

well it makes no sense that you fight yourself Combat should be like star wars KOTOR its an RPG after all.


I'm so glad that bethesda doesnt realy listen that much to waht the community says because its filled with stupid suggestions that would just make a morrowind 2.


I have something for you guys. Morrowind was good on paper not in practice. its essentially a bad game in an awesome universe and with an awesome atmosphere

Opinions.

People have them.

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The biggest problem with Oblivion's minigames, and even part of Fallout 3's minigames was that, by having a hybrid game between player skill and character skill, it devalued both, as was mentioned earlier. What's the point in having a character skill for lockpicking when anyone with a skill of 5 could pick even the best lock in the game? In Fallout 3, it was pretty much the same, except that you would get very annoying instances where you had 49 lockpicking skill and the lock was a level 50 lock. Everything else was as bad as Oblivion.

The problem is, I really can't think of a minigame that also takes into account player skill in an obvious manner. I'm not sure that the two systems are compatible.

I never said that there's something wrong with the Witcher's minigames. On the other side, planet scanning in Mass Effect 2 is ridiculous. What's next? Clean-your-room-in-Normandy simulation?

The Witcher comment was aimed more generally not for you.

But the question still stands:
How was it out of context?

If you read my second post - which i gather you didn't - you'll notice i was quite explicit in saying Witcher minigames were well implemeted and in context and thus showed that even when nicely done and in context minigames still suffer from the inextricable flaw of being a mode separate from overall gameplay.

I'm good with all other minigames exept that [cencored] persuasion what was so easy that I was able to stuck my head up my ass while painting a picture and cooking and still get the numbers up.