Do you think you mighta answered your own question there? But yes, for the sake of argument, let's say it's practically impossible. How do game developers react to practically impossible challenges, do you know?..



Technology isn't the issue. It's more of a design hurdle than anything else. Having to finalise a significant part of the game earlier in the schedule (so that it can be handballed to and from studios) and then that part remaining inflexible right up until release. That wouldn't be a problem for the major npcs (main plots are usually finalised early on), but for the minor npcs and plot elements, the stuff that devs would otherwise tinker with until release (the bread and butter stuff that actually makes an rpg world seem alive!), it is a problem. Bigger budget and more manhours spent on the problem would indeed go some way towards fixing it, but at the end of the day, Beth is big business now, which makes them even less likely to spend money on an aspect deemed unnecessary by umpteen million console players.

Even a good director would be hard pressed. How many lines are in Oblivion? Assembling a list of contexts for each line for the director to refer to would have been a massive task in itself just for Oblivion.

they should at least hire forum members to do the voices that way modders can use the same people for their mods and they will fit in nicely.

Well, I think the way Morrowind did text was too deep in paragraphs, and the copy paste things everyone said were lifeless and dull. If there was more attention to writing personalities for npcs that only have text dialogue, it won't be such a problem.

From a personal perspective, I like that it adds humanity and emotion into every-day encounters, and makes people look less like encyclopedias, and more like people.

Just seeing text pop up isn't the most satisfying thing when you could, technically, have them be talking, and having knowledge that they had voice acting before, but abandoned it.

Why do people like voice acting?

Why do people like hearing?

Um why do people like reading books rather than listening to them?

There's quite a good article on Kotaku that is relevant to this http://kotaku.com/5548052/game-design-as-make+believe-depiction-vs-narration

There's an interesting point made about the level of imagination required to make it your own game



I've wondered a bit about what he is trying to say - I think he is saying it takes more imagination to visualise through reading than hearing and watching.

He goes on to say:



To me that seems quite a good comment - I'm okay with an NPC just voicing a hello and then being able to read the text - the hello sound just identifies to me if the character is young/old strong/weak or a particular race - it gives them some context to my world of make believe.

If voice acting is done well it can be a great feature (I've grown up in gaming listening to Jennifer Hale and love hearing her in games) - but I've never bought a game for the voice acting um... that's what movies are for - however I have stopped playing games because the voice acting was so bad it kept breaking immersion for me though

Because it makes the game more interesting, I mean if they hired people that have bad voice acting the game would not be that great.

The more you require imagination from the gamers, the harder you fall when you break it. I couldn't stand it in Morrowind after Bloodmoon was installed that every butthead knew how to get to Solstheim.

And you can say the same thing about about constantly repeated messages delivered via voice acting too. It hurts my immersion to hear thieves and nobles, Orcs and Bretons, all repeat identical comments about Mudcrabs and Daedra worship in Oblivion. It is shoddy craftsmanship, not a flaw inherent in voice acted or text-based game design.

I don't know what planet some posters are living on; but the suggestion that in 2010 (let alone 2012), NPCs should just gesture and grunt while text is displayed, in the context of a showcase AAA game is bonkers.

People are talking about presentation conventions that would be barely passable in faux-8bit hipster indie games.

Since at least the launch of the current console generation, major game releases are multi-media experiences. Pre-CDRom era games had text-only dialog not as an aesthetic choice, but because of technological limitations.

People like voice acting because when they talk to other people in real life, giant 2d boxes full of printed text don't appear next to the person with whom they are conversing. The creators of TES4, who spent such great effort in realizing a beautifully rendered realtime 3d world governed by rules and routines such that it seemed to be alive (under the best circumstances) were clearing trying to create an immersive representation of a fantasy world as though it were real -- oral communication is to text-only dialog as realtime specular HDR lighting is to a 16 pixel diameter yellow circle near the top of the screen.

In many respects, Oblivion's full VO fell short of the mark, in some cases missing it wildly. Nobody denies this, but on the whole, the full VO, and the NPC-NPC dialog were striking features of Oblivion which helped it define its place as the benchmark for 'next generation' (as it was considered some years ago) action-RPG experiences.

Attempting to address this thread rationally is a mistake I've clearing let myself be irritated into making. If I hadn't seen so many people take and defend preposterous positions before, I would have to assume that the topic and its defenders were trolling.

Its not even a possibility as far as I see it - gamesas is about as likely to adopt a text-only dialog system for TESV as it is to base the game on the SCUMM engine.

except tha in foreign films, you hear the other language.

Aye and it was odd too hear 2 people of the same voice talking

I want VA only if it's more varied and more voices

For many people, Oblivion was not as immersive as Morrowind. This is because immersion is NOT related to sensory perception (this is called VR) but rather to the ability to mentally perceive your character's surroundings (an excellent game will use both VR and Immersion). I'm not sure what planet you are from (to borrow your euphemism), but on Earth most conversations consist of more than quick one-liners which contain no actual information. In order to immerse someone in a game, you have to provide enough detailed information for them to suspend their disbelief. Oblivion failed not because it had voiced dialogue, but because the voiced dialogue was less realistic than boxes of floating text.

Well, one consistent thing I've noticed is that we all agree on "text or voice, it needs to be good." I agree with Shades that it does break the immersion somewhat to have everyone know how to get to Solstheim, but the "mudcrabs" don't help with voiced dialog. Also, consistency is nice. I won't spoil the events of the ending, but seriously, a game that has been up until that point fully voiced and cinematic, then Dragon Age has a text-based montage for the ending, which should be the most cinematic part. Hell of a place to put a Baldur's Gate homage, BioWare!

So if Bethesda go with text, they need to go the full nine, make sure it works and is well written. If they go with text, it needs to be well thought-out, well-written, and well-acted especially.

So let me go with "I like GOOD voice acting." It's really a matter of taste.

I think many of the problems being mentioned here by those who want the voice acting to be better (not those who prefer text only), are simply acknowledging the "growing pains" Bethesda is going through trying to get things "right". I want to see improvements to the system too. But count me in as someone who is all for voice acting.

Honestly, either a company cares, listens to the feedback from game users, and strives to improve while keeping up with the current and future technologies...or it doesn't. I've yet to be convinced the Bethesda crew doesn't listen or doesn't care.

Healthy critiques with suggestions for improvement as things move forward can certainly be helpful. Fighting progress seems a bit pointless, but history has shown it can be human nature to do so.

Honestly, Fallout 3 did a much better job with the voice acting. So that makes me think they're more used to doing it, meaning it wouldn't be a bad thing to have it.

Well at least there would be one positive aspect of a TES MMORPG.
No voice acting! Unless they go the Old Republic route...

I actually prefer the voice acting over the reading because it feels a bit more immersive. Even though in Morrowind the NPC's voice is entirely up to you, I do know that they carry the same voice that they greet you with, making them all sound exactly the same in my head.

I guess thats still a lot more different sounding NPC's than whats in Oblivion. (Argonians and Khajiits share the same voice, as do all elves...which is not the case in Morrowind.)

Text can also give NPC's a lot more to say, as its much easier to create, but at the same time, you'll get a lot of repetitive stuff like latest rumors and little secrets which sound different coming from another race's mouth. Do I want to hear the same thing from another races mouth? Not really..

Again, nobody's asking for text only.



"Fighting progress" is an interesting way of putting it. Where i stand, not exactly an old school roleplayer but still someone who came up in the golden age of crpgs, fighting progress is exactly what the other faction is doing... Morrowind was fantastic in many, many ways. It still stands as the poster child - the pinnacle of rpg potential unrealised and a hint of what may have followed. There were numerous aspects in which Beth could have improved it, but apart from npc routines and slightly improved melee combat, they failed. There were several aspects (one aspect in particular - the topic of this thread) in which they not only failed to improve, they actually took a huge step backwards...

Full VA in Oblivion was little more than a marketting gimmick. A gimmick at the expense of real and varied dialogue options, and a gimmick which a younger, clueless market grabbed with both hands.

It came as no surprise to some. This is not a new debate. I knew exactly what Beth was sacrificing in order to achieve its gimmick. Myself and many others argued against it on forums like this and we were universally shot down in flame. But then Oblivion was released, and we were proved right. Each and every prediction i made, came true.

So please understand if you can, that we saw it all happening before and we tried to stand against an overwhelming tide of people who were "impeding progress". It was my fervent hope that the failures of Oblivion would be lessons learned, but here we are in the years leading up to TES V and Beth looks set to make the same mistake again. Our warnings may be jsut as futile now as they were then, but we have to try.

And just quickly...


Surely i am not the only person who thinks that Fallout 3's VA, while slightly better than Oblivion's, was still woefully short of the mark to warrant placing it in a class above Oblivion, yes?

LOL at all the people shouting "IMERSHUN IMERSHUN!"

Immersion is not listening to the same voice say the same thing 500 times on 500 different characters. Anybody who thinks that is immersion, well more power to you.

The fact of the matter is anyone with half a brain should prefer text because you don't have to hear shoddy voice actors and every NPC having just two topics. Cause when I see people downtown, all I ever as about is Rumors or the Town I'm in. :rolleyes:

Developed countries teach kids to read for a reason.

Yes, VA in OB was such a huge step forward:

Bosmer NPC to Altmer NPC - "I hear that there are problems in the land of the Altmer....."
Altmer NPC's reply to Bosmer NPC - "I hear that there are problems in the land of the Altmer...."
"Good day"
"Good day"

Now, isn't THAT immersive and realistic for you?

Half the dialog problem was that there weren't enough dialog alternatives to avoid random repeats on a near-constant basis, and not enough different voices or variations in the lines between races and classes to prevent too-blatant repetition. The other half of the problem was that there were insufficient checks to insure that the NPC wasn't talking about him or herself in 3rd person, as in merchants telling you about services, and naming themself as someone you should visit, or NPCs saying things about their own race or profession in 3rd person, as in the "land of the Altmer" example. Some lines might need to be more "modular", and be dynamically edited to exclude such "conflicting" portions. Others would need "alternatives" to replace them in those specific instances.

The first half of the problem could be solved by having each voice actor say something SIMILAR, but not exactly identical to the last: voice 1 says "I saw a Mudcrab.....", voice 2 says "I spotted a Mudcrab.....", and voice 3 says "I encountered one of those annoying Mudcrabs.....". By filtering by race, profession, and other characteristics, you can have the snobbish Altmer noble say it one way in one tone of voice, and the down-on-his-luck Altmer say it in a totally different tone, worded in a more "down to earth" manner, both done by the same voice actor or by a different actor with a vaguely similar voice. An orc NPC would say it in a different manner, using a totally different voice. The second half of the problem needs to be handled by careful use of those filters to make sure the wrong words don't come out of the mouths of NPCs who shouldn't say those particular things in that particular way.

Full VA could be implemented well, but the undertaking would have to be much more extensive, and with a lot more attention to detail, than in OB. If they're going to do another "halfway measure" like in OB, going half text-based would be an improvement, and be a lot easier and cheaper to do.

I agree VA should either be implemented correctly or not implemented at all, and for the last 10-odd years that second option hasn't been an option: a large majority of gamers today expect credible VA in their games. Remembering back to ancient games like 7th Guest and Myst, these titles had some great VA and little else, but it was still enough to make them incredibly immersive and enjoyable. Expecting that level of detail in a RPG isn't fair, or maybe practical. Still, Bethesda would do better to hire more actors, instead of blow much of their budget on a few celebrities. The bottom line is, it's impossible to properly voice dozens or hundreds of NPC's with a handful of people.

I don't see why people think Oblivion's VA was done half-way or poorly. I think it was done as well as the medium allows. In a linear game, you can get really great voice acting because a linear game is basically an interactive movie. But in a non-linear environment, VA can pretty much only be the way it was in Oblivion without it becoming prohibitively expensive! Because of that, VA pushes games towards a more linear approach. Even if that isn't the designer's intent. Compare the guild quests in Oblivion to those in Morrowind. In Oblivion, each guild arc plays like a mini-corridor RPG. Strictly A to B to C to D. So you don't get one game where everything is entangled together, you get a whole bunch of different games tied together by the same setting. They were fun games, don't get me wrong, but what I love best about Bethesda games is that big sprawling, entangled world. A push for more voice acting or "improved" voice acting is a push for a more linear game.

Earlier someone mentioned SCUMM. Same thing happened there with interface. When you typed what you did, you could do pretty much anything. Sure, there was a finite limit. But it was large. While not part of the SCUMM system, the sierra games offer good controls because they transitioned from a non-graphical to a graphical interface. Look at all the different verbs and nouns you can use in the original Space Quest. Compare that with the limitations of the point-and-click. So many jokes, lost. Or re-designed in clumsy ways. It would be silly to suggest that we go back to that old method, but at the same time you can't help but notice what was lost in the process.

Some voice acting is fine, but I fear an over-reliance on it.

Why do people like listening to music instead of reading it?

I am not arguing for voice acting over text. My only point is that people like hearing; so naturally they like voice acting. Back when I played D&D, I enjoyed hearing my friends fill the game world with fully-voiced dialogue, despite several of them being incompetent actors. I appreciate sounds in my world, and I don't feel that my imagination is ripped off when someone chooses to tell me something instead of handing me a note.

This is a specious comparison. Music is intended to be listened to - the score is merely the 'blueprint' used by the composer to communicate with a musician. A novel, on the other hand, is intended to be read.

Novels perhaps. Are video games meant to be read?