We've had these discussions in the forums and it's nice to see that Bethesda apparently had them too.

I've been an advocate of Skill-to-Perk conversion for a long time. I've been an advocate of trimming SPECIAL max down from 10 to 5 each.

However, the system I propagated was a complete reinvention of the classic perk system. No longer would a level-up grant you perks automatically (or a perk point to save up - saving is generally the better alternative imo), instead each perk would have individual value coming from a single resource: Skill (or better Perk) Points.

In a system where you'd get say 10-15 Skill/Perk Points per level-up, perks would cost 10-50 Points, depending on the individual value of the perk. Level requirements would be completely gone, other perk and SPECIAL requirements would remain.

There's of course a problem still remaining with this type of Skill to Perk conversion: Skills have inherently greater value than perks and if you let both work under the same resource, players will choose (former) Skills, not regular Perks.

Skills break barriers. Perks give advantages but they don't allow access to parts of the game like skills do.

Thus I soon realized that a common resource would be a bad idea and split it up into Skill Points (governed by Intelligence) to buy skills - featuring a streamlined skill system with four skill levels (the respective costs 10, 20, 30 and 40 Skill Points) each - and Perk Points (governed by Luck) to buy perks with varying costs.

Now, no matter how the resource system will turn out (I expect one level up = 1 perk to buy and skills being perks) Bethesda will have encountered the same problem, which means they will likely fundamentally change the importance of skills to better fit the perk system.

Either perks will be boosted in importance, or skills will be downgraded in importance. Most players would rather choose the 'You can pick hard locks now' perk than even Grim Reaper's Sprint in it's OP form, so I can see no alternative.

I found the FO3 system just fine, the only thing I'd maybe change is, make skill improvement work like in Skyrim where you become better at stuff you do, rather than deciding to become better at whatever you want. But I'd still keep Tags so you can pick what your PC starts out being good at cause that's RP.

The system doesn't work like that.

Fallout 3 tried to streamline skills without common value for a single skill point. Lockpick and Science exemplify this.

The only solution to the 1-100 classic system would be the abandonment of Thresholds in favor of RNG.

Tag Skills can still work by granting a certain amount of the resource to freely distribute at the beginning.

My suggestion was meant for skills in general. To fix thresholds for Lockpick and Hacking what I would do is simply make them like in Skyrim, where you can attempt any difficulty lock regardless of your lockpick level but being higher level makes it easier.

I begin to better accept this business of not having skills.

I always said there in the NV forum. Unlike all previous Fallout, Lockpick is USELESS in NV.

the unique significant loots obtained behind closed doors are: lucky in Primm, that plasma rifle in Repconn HQ and Mobius glasses in OWB.

The only time this skill is really useful in a quest is in Vault 22, to open the door that has the data.

That said, my current character has 100 in lockpick. The skill points are very generous, I end up spending in skills that I dont want because I dont have where to spend.

Maybe this new system is more balanced, right?

One idea I had was that there'd be no "leveling" at all, and you'd just buy perks (or skill points) with XP. Like, the cheapest perks only cost about 1000 XP, but badass perks like Grim Reaper's Sprint or Solar Powered have a meaner SPECIAL requirement and cost like 20,000 XP.

And if skills were a thing (I won't miss them), each point you add raises the cost of the next one, maybe even exponentially so that when you reach a certain point it's ridiculously expensive to get any more skill points; it'd still be "possible" to get 100 in all skills, in the same sense that it's "possible" to get all perks in Skyrim with Legendary skills; you would need to exploit the game somehow to get near the XP in a realistic timeframe.

But again, I won't miss skills if they've been phased out. Hacking and Lockpicking can easily be turned into ranked perks, and I'd rather not be forbidden from trying a terminal/lock just for not meeting the requirements anyway. I love gaining XP and earning perks in Fallout, but the real RPG experience is the amount of choices we get to make in questing, and the different character types we can be, not necessarily what represents those character types.

To be honest, while the nostalgia of the old system will be hard to lose, i would rather see a "Skills improve of use" system like in skyrim, then a skills ->to->perks setup. The whole skill to perk thing will make it feel like some sort of MMO like progression.

I don't like the idea of not leveling up.
hear me out on this. I have essentially been programmed a la Pavlov's Dog to be happy when I hear the level up sound. Do you not want me to be happy?

Oh, don't worry, from what we've seen of gaining XP and the status screen so far, my idea isn't in Fallout 4. Myself, I'm a fan of the cha-ching sound effect from gaining XP. They can play the level-up fanfare when you spend points on a perk... but again, this isn't Fallout 4.

Im all for renovation and updating the game mechanics, im usually not usually one to take this side but.....

The old system is not bad and just because it had issues=/=it being bad system. Just because your car needs a new spark plug does not mean its okay to go buy a new car because you need it fixed. Same thing applies with skills. The skill system is GREAT, it just needs to be tweaked to add more value and more of a curve to the skills you prioritize.

Isn't that exactly what the skill-to-perk conversion tries to achieve? The meaningful content is to be found in the real consequences of the mechanics and in that regard I see that solution as a viable option.

I hate change T_T I want people to call me Doctor and be able to heal people and molerats if my medicine skill is high.

Thank you! But I think we both know, based on Bethesda's history, that this not their MO. Instead of improving upon systems, they remove them entirely.

I hated having attributes removed from Skyrim. It didn't ruin the game for me by any stretch, but the longer I played the more I wished they were there. I think the argument can be made for Skyrim that having a revamped attribute system would have added some richness to the game, and if done right, made player development a lot better. I mention that because I fear Bethesda may have made the same mistake, albeit in a different fashion.

I think what we can assume is that our special stats will govern our effectiveness with combat based play. Perception and Agility will affect small arms, Strength all hand to hand, and then Intelligence (and Perception?) will be energy weapons. Endurance and Strength will limit the gear we can wear and you can go on down the list. For skills that the OP mentioned that locked off sections of the game (i.e. Science and Lockpick) I'm assuming we are going to have ranks of perks that we can select for those skills as we level. I'm assuming that ALL intangible skills will be handled this way (Repair, Medicine, etc.).

I hope this is not the case, because I do not like it in the least. I agree with several other posters that I would much prefer that skills remain and increase similar to the way they increase in Skyrim. In fact, I would like the developers to design the game in such a way that I NEVER have to enter a level up screen or select a perk. I would like to see the immersion reach such a point where I adapt to everything I spend time at. So as I pick locks, the game will confer to me benefits and bonuses that pertain to that skill. As I use firearms, I will develop the attributes that assist in that skill. The game should track all this and allow us to see how we are improving, but we shouldn't make conscious decisions on what to be better at. We should just play, immerse in the world, and grow into a badass.

I think they could pull it off very easily. For the more unique perks, such as Mysterious Stranger, we could have events in the game that we complete to unlock them. Maybe we do a bunch of really hard work for some unknown benefactor who promises us a rich payday, and after its all said and done, the benefactor promises to "watch out for us". Translation: the Mysterious Stranger will now pop up in vats from time to time. Perk unlocked.

I find a system like that much more preferable to pausing the game to pick out skills and perks and all that jazz. This isn't a foregin concept to RPGs and I think it is the next step for Bethesda games, but they seem to be dancing around it. They need someone on their design team to lay out that format from the beginning and build the game around it, because it will make for one hell of an experience and it will set a new bar for all future RPG development.

It does achieve that in sense that buying a new engine fixes the problem of needing an oil change. Same anology on a smaller scale, because while yes you still have the skill system, its a different skill system. The ONLY problem with the old system is that it gives too much skill points per level and/or gives skill points too frequently. This was an issue with perks in fallout 3 and was fixed by one simple change in NV. The fix was in the form of adding perks every other level, instead of every level.

So my question is.......why all the needless and time consuming revamps when I just gave you two simple fixes that work? The old system was unique, memorable and engaging even with its flaws, and it allowed you to build the way you wanted, not limited by what you happen to be doing before your level up (to be fair you didnt suggest this particular problem but i have seen it elsewhere IE skyrim skill system).

I think before I end this post I will ask the readers to ask a few question to themselves. Before you think about them, think about the skill systems in fallout 3 and NV and everything about them.

1. Do I like this system? (excluding the problems)

2. Is it well setup and well thought out? ^^^^^^

3. Is it user friendly/easy to understand and able to be figured out within 5-10 minutes?

4. Does the system present choice an consequence?

1. Do I like this system? (excluding the problems)

I like the concept.

2. Is it well setup and well thought out? ^^^^^^

Special felt like it did nothing, and many skills were worthless/only useful at 25/50/75/100

3. Is it user friendly/easy to understand and able to be figured out within 5-10 minutes?

Easy to figure out, until you realise how little it meant.

4. Does the system present choice an consequence?

Not when you get almost perfect. At that point it was just lolwhatever.



Don't get me wrong. I LOVE perks & traits. But for the actual implementation of skills and SPECIAL in fo3/fnv, it just felt lackluster.

With the direction FO4 looks to be taking, I thoroughly like it. SPECIAL choices affect gameplay more, and there's less points to go around, so choices matter.

No empty skills that do nothing. Barter/survival could've been ignored, and even science/lockpick felt empty. Do I have 25/50/75/100? OK good.

The gun skills I usually put my points into just for the extra damage. The sway/accuracy loss for low skill wasn't bad - but gaining damage felt wrong.

Speech as pass/fail was better than the % savescumming it encouraged.