Quests have nothing to do with simplification.

Spells have varying effects. Armor does the same thing, it protects. Its enchant used to come from said spell lists, not so much anymore. Having less spells loses in game effects and ways to play. Losing armor doesn't. Although I never once say having less spells dumb down the game. That must have been someone else. Again, read my point on slots.

Doesn't matter whether you liked degradation or not. Its not there anymore. Its been simplified.

This whole time you've ignored the actual points. In the whole thread no less. Art thou trolling?

Actually read the posts and know the topic, or don't bother to reply.

You are right, casual is a definition, not an opinion. But you are coloring your perception of the definition with your opinion. "A casual gamer plays Farmville. There's no arguing that point."

I'll argue that point right here, there are people who'll spend literally days on Farmville with little to no rest. There's nothing casual about that, that's hardcoe addiction.

Too many of you taking the "it's not dumbed down!" stance are focusing WAY too much on the negative connotations of the word "dumb". Skyrim is still an awesome game, and we who are calling it dumbed down still obviously love the game, and are enjoying it, otherwise we'd have no comparisons to go off of with the other games we love. It is still dumbed down. Or "streamlined", before you people pop some blood vessels.

To get a sense of how big the holds should've been, take a look at Winterhold in TES I: Arena, or read about Solitude in the in-game literature. Some of these holds weren't supposed to be tiny Nordic villages, but that's what we got.

There's a lot of discrepancy too. For instance, Morthal is just as big as Riverwood. Why does it need a Jarl? There's maybe 10 people living there, and they don't even have a general trader. For another example, consider how Falkreath supposedly has the biggest cemetery in Skyrim. Now, how many graves can you find there? Go ahead and count, and keep in mind that this cemetery has been around for a long, long while.

You think it is boring. I think it is fun. What should we do? Go our separate ways. I play Skyrim and you go play some other game. Sorry that you get bored but I got bored of Morrowind and other complex games. Doesn't mean I thought they weren't fun at the time but I think Skyrim is more fun. Yes I understood how the game worked I'm not dumb at all. I just like games that are somewhat more simple and has better combat. I played Morrowind over 500 hours I plan on playing Skyrim for that long. In plus you answered your own question. This feels like a flame thread more than anything.

I'm done after this post, I've got 75 billion people replying and I can't keep up.

Listen, it's not a dumbed down, nor a casual game. That's the end of it. A casual gamer is someone who plays iPhone games on their lunch break. If a non-gamer buys Skyrim, comes home and plays it 8 hours a day for a month, they are NOT a casual gamer anymore.

I've been playing video games since I was a little kid, and now I'm 26. I know the difference.

"Casual games can have any type of gameplay, and fit in any genre. They are typically distinguished by their simple rules and lack of commitment required in contrast to more complex hardcoe games.[1] They require no long-term time commitment or special skills to play, and there are comparatively low production and distribution costs for the producer."

""Casual gamer" is a loosely defined term used to describe a type of video game player whose time or interest in playing games is limited compared with a hardcoe gamer. Casual gamers can conceivably consist of any people who show more than a passing interest in video games, therefore it is difficult to categorize them as a group. For this reason, games which attempt to appeal to the casual player tend to strive for simple rules and ease of game play, the goal being to present a pick-up-and-play experience that people from almost any age group or skill level could enjoy.[6][24][25][26][27] Casual gaming demographics also vary greatly from those of traditional computer games, as the typical casual gamer is older and more predominantly female,[28][29] with over 74% of those purchasing casual games being women.[30]"

It took my girlfriend weeks to learn how to use a controller to play Portal, you can't just pick up and competently play Skyrim. Even a kid who plays Madden religiously isn't a casual gamer, but he isn't a hardcoe gamer either.

Wanting things to be more complex just so you can say it doesn't appeal to a mass market is a weird mindset to me. Removing greaves doesn't even affect much for example.

Frankly I'd rather games not go back to turn based, dice-roll combat. It worked then, still works for some but it'd be boring as hell in Skyrim.

Then i ask thee to produce an example of such "quest-lines" that exist outside of the Daedra, Main quest, and the guilds, that is longer than a Morrowind questline.

Im tired of this non constructive nor informative nor interesting thredas.
Can you people go play super mario instead?

I don't see it as "dumbed down".. For me it is more like being streamlined. I am hardly a casual player where it concerns RPGs. For example I love(d) Japanese RPG's but if there was one thing I didn't like about TES... It was leveling up.
Let me give a few examples:
Morrowind; Luck... I am swinging with my (considering my level) übersword and can even hit it two times while striking 10 or more times... Come on.. One can argue that Luck is a game mechanic, but for me it was broken.
Both Morrowind and Oblivion. Really do I have to level up Athletics and Acrobatics to run/walk faster, take less fall damage etc. Why... it's just tedious.
Over leveling: The way the enemies were level scaled in Oblivion... and the way you leveled up. Why the hell do I have to put thought in my leveling. To some this might be a challenge for me it nearly destroyed the game.
Oblivion gates: Oh boy... Repeating dungeons every freakin time.. I rushed the MQ just to get these annoying things out. I know that it is just my opinion.. But overall.. what a relieve.. to see thing differently in Skyrim.

Now Skyrim:
Leveling is based on how you play, not based on a pre-determined Class. If you want to change while being leveled... it even ads challenge to the game.
Repair is out.. thank god.. Carrying repair hammers was always a chore. I didn't mind it in FO3 and FO:NV because it was much more streamlined. Find a similar weapon. Bamn repair op. So if there is anything to say for that option I would have liked the FO system. However I am glad those hammers are out.
No more spell creating: Ok I can feel the pain... but let's be honest it balances the game more.
Taking out spells like waterwalking: OK they were nice but honestly was there any real purpose...No..
Less level scaling and high level encounters: Fine for me. In Skyrim you have to invest to defeat certain enemies... (dragon priests anyone).. in Obivion you could ignore it.
Auto Health Regeneration: This one is debatable.. and imho should have been an option.
Attributes and Choice of Race: Granted they could have done more with this. FO:NV could have been a great example. Thinking about benefits and disadvantages before you start.. This is actually the one aspect in which the game imho has been dumbed down or aimed at a broader market.

So for me the dumbing down is for the most part no dumbing down.... It is actually more like streamlining. To be honest I never was a fan of the TES style of leveling but love how it is implemented in Skyrim.

Exactly. Skyrim is good, but that's only because 99% of other games don't even try to do as much. But compared to previous titles and mechanics and features, its lacking for some of the people that enjoyed those features. A lot of people, but whatever. We want them back, to expand and make the game better.

How is it dumbed down?

There's a differance between something being refined and something being "dumbed down".

Something being complex doesn't make it smarter.

See my points on some previous page. "Dumbed Down" is a term. It means simplified. But, you already know this and want to argue semantics to whats effectively become a slang term now, right?

The overall lack of options for mages. Lack of options is dumbing down.


Thank you :foodndrink:


Skyrim is about as big as Oblivions Cyrodiil. That is a fact in the game universe Skyrim is a lot smaller than Cyrodiil. Theu decided to make it about as big as Cyrodiil so we could have more to explore so what about what the details say. In the lore we know its smaller but as we play its a decent chunk of land. Why could we not have the same courtesy with the cities and villages? Yes things in the game are reflected from norse culture, that should have nothing to do with city size. Just like Bethesda did not say hey lets make Skyrim smaller because Cyrodiil was bigger. I fear they did it because of streamlining.

but the things like armor degradation did not actually create complexity in the game it just gave you another tedious task to do. And the reason that that spell making was removed was because practically all spells are different in skyrim

also look at what has been added
dual wielding
dragon shouts
closeable perks
smiting
radient story and greatly improved radient AI, people actually react to what you do which makes the game much deeper

and there were still 85 different spells that doesnt really sound dumbed down considering games like the witcher had 5

Fighting the same enemies over and over is quite fun!

Not counting enemies that aren't unique to certain dungeons, I've only commonly seen...

Draugr
Frostbite Spiders
Dwarven Sphere
Dwarven Spider
Dwarven Centurion

Everything else only pops up from time to time.

"I liked The Elder Scrolls before it was cool.

F-ing hipsters don't get to play games, dammit.

Everyone says "oh , its dumbed down, dumbed down" ... bah! They dont say why, and when they come to explain, they copy paste like parrots the same stuff in all threads.

A tedious task, is something to worry about, and take into consideration. Not to mention Oblivion was really the only ES that got degradation wrong. It was awesome in Daggerfall. Anyway, Ive proposed an awesome way to bring back degradation that would hurt anybody, but that's for a different thread.

there are less spells than the last two ES games. I don't care what the witcher does. An ES only contemporary is another ES as far as I'm concerned. Smithing adds, your right on that. Dual wiled doesn't though, since there's nothing complex about that, its just a half assed Morrowind equip system anyway. It works fine for non magic builds, but with magic its lacking in general. Dragon Shouts are basically just spells. They are a bit more evolved than a regular spell though, Ill give you that, but no more involved than a lot of the different powers and spells you could get in previous games. Like Risen Flesh in SI for instance.

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Agreed and nicely stated.

I prefer the word "simplification".

As soon as the word "dumb" appears it's go go flame wars.

Then again some people seemingly want to play a game that requires a masters degree in quantum physics.Two sides to the coin and all that.

I disagree. Smoothing out the player interaction with the game, and backing away from meaningless "residual" RPG stats that are holdover from 1970's pen and paper RPG's does not equal dumbing down. It increases the immersion factor and leads to better gameplay. Skyrim's whole play what you want and your skills increase accordingly, with minimal need to debate assigning points is actually brilliant. Heck even Richard "Lord British" Garriott seems to agree with a similar philosophy of game design these days. One of move the computer RPG away from the old PnP era. Develop by doing, not by anolyzing numbers.

The only difference between the two is how the person who reads it is taking it. Both just mean the removal of something (features, impurities, etc) to make it more accessible to a consumer.

See, I take issue with this. A lot of people usually means a bunch of over opinionated people on the internet, which is no way a lot nor representative of the community at large.

People say Civilization 5 was dumbed down for example, but you know what? I play Civilization 2 and 3 still. If Skyrim's changes bother you, play the older games, message Bethesda and stop clogging the forums with nonstop gripes.

You can't handle change, that's fine. We enjoy the game as it is, and we're tired of seeing these threads.

LETS FACE IT ALRIGHT THE OLD ELDER SCROLLS ARE DEAD. WHAT MADE THEM GREAT IS DEAD. YES IT LOOKS PRETTIER AND LARGER BUT THE LOOKS DRAW AND STORY AND CONTENT KEEP YOU THERE.
IN SOME SENSE SKYRIM FAILED PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

if you want to play a game where you dont fight the same enemies over and over again then ES is not your series

Amen to that. Morrowind was a great game but the combat wasn't good. What Skyrim is to Morrowind's combat feel, Dark Souls is to Skyrim's combat. I know they won't go that far because 90% of their audience would quit before finishing the first level, but that's why they should create another Scrolls series. And it doesn't have to be brutal like Souls, just have areas that are always that difficult, and areas that are always easy, a Hobbit Shire should always be easy to steamroll. I wonder when RPGs first adopted the method of scaling, so a player can never venture too far off "the intended path" ?