One of the "feature cuts" that gets brought up alot is spell creation, so I don't get it in the context of this argument - how does cutting spell creation make the game appeal more to a bigger crowd since it isn't a feature that you would have to use if you didn't want to (just like you can play Skyrim without delving into enchanting or alchemy and just buying make do stuff)?

There would still be the existing spells you would get (like have always existed)... and attributes, eh. I like my RPG complexity in plot, in player options, choices, tactics, strategies and being able to do smart things to achieve better results. I never mind too much when mechanics are less in your face. The less I have to be reminded that virtual dice are rolling and/or numbers are being crunched the better while I'm role playing some thief or mage or warrior. The system that replaced the attributes isn't perfect, but I like the direction it is heading in (and it seems there are plenty of other non-casual gamers who like it to). So I'm not to convinced that is evidence of trying to appeal to casual gamers (the first because it makes no sense, the second because in my opinion it isn't a bad thing).

Things like easy fast travel and quest markers though are more like it - but they aren't big deals and can easily be avoided (well, fast travel at least).

Please keep this stuff to yourself if you don't want to get torn apart on the forums.

Cheers

Cheers, good friend. Cheers.

Spells added in the form of dragon shouts, negates spells removed. Removing spell creation was a bad idea.

Fewer quest lines? There are way more than Oblivion or Morrowind ever had. Shorter? Nope, same length.

More armor and weapons than Oblivion, so that went up. After Glass there wasn't much left in Oblivion.

Casual is a definition, not an opinion. A casual gamer plays Farmville. There's no arguing that point.

Oh, so in my opinion I can dual wield. You're right. Looking back on Morrowinds environment to Skyrims. I definitely feel less immersed.

I felt like the nerevar too. I played Morrowind. I played Oblivion. Now I'm playing skyrim. Each game has changed. That doesn't mean its dumbed down. Some things were removed, more were added.

Oh, and about the only thing on there being an opinion is the one you quoted, and i suppose you're right about that. It is an opinion. The thing is, I don't just feel like a common citizen in this game, which I really enjoy. I feel stronger than everyone. Even if its on master difficulty.

Also I don't know how to explain why the towns are smaller anymore.

1. You're in a harsh landscape

2. They're HOLDS, there's tons of stuff and people outside the towns

I can't make it any simpler. And that argument makes it sound like "casuals" want small towns, uh...ever played Grand Theft Auto?

Gods be praised. Thou art again, wrong!

As thou canst clearly see, Morrowind had 31 UNIQUE quests for it's Mage's guild questline, according to the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Main_Page
In Skyrim, there are only 25 quests for the College. The same can be said for every other guild present in Skyrim.

I'd say my link to the Miriam Webster site and copying the definition of Dumbed Down was valid. If you remove features that require thought and problem solving(IE intelligence) to make a game less difficult and more accessible to a larger audience, that is by the very definition of the phrase, Dumbed Down.

Just because the majority of people don't understand the concept of Rhetoric, doesn't make those who do wrong. Language isn't a democracy.

Towns are small? YEA! Really? I was under the impression basing a video game of a nordic society would hail larger towns. No, Norseman (Nord) Didn't really have big towns. Take more into your considerations about the way things were designed in skyrim. The game was obviously influenced but a norse culture. The architecture, the environment, the entire persona of the Nord race. Soverngard, somewhat like valhalla....

You keep bring up things that have nothing to do with the simplification that went on.

-The GUILD quest lines are shorter. There are more quests over all, but that has nothing to do with complexity or simplification. You'd have to look at each quest subjectively and compare them to previous games quests, which is obvious impractical.

-Having more or less armor sets has nothing to do with simplification either, what does however is less slots, which has been a recurring theme since after Morrowind. Now they don't even degrade, which is simplified.

Your getting too hung up on the word. Its blatantly obvious to people that have played all the games and have seen everything Skyrim has to offer, that its been simplified in a lot more ways than its been 'made more complex'.



But how does having something else in the other hand add depth, complexity? It has nothing to do with simplifications that we are talking about.

I actually find it more in-depth than Oblivion.

That's not what he said, I'm talking about quests in the game as a total. Before you say it, quest lines doesn't distinguish that part.

I would like a few tweaks to the game. Less rare ingredients sold by vendors, more balanced crafting, and tougher and fewer dragons. Other than that the game is perfect and massively fun

:D

but with radient story Skyrim has infinite quests, yeh they are just fetch quests to go to a certain dungeon, but the dungeons are actually interesting this time

Then thou art not talking about quest-lines! I rest my case.

Do you know what was also a major feature of RPGs? Dice. People realised computers could simulate dice rolls and players didn't need to see the results. Why do we need attributes again, on a computer based RPG? Oh yes, because thats what an RPG is! Silly me!

Skyrim is Skyrim.
Morrowind is Morrowind.
If you play a game for what it is you will generally be happier with it.

Judge the games on their merits and flaws (trust me both games have plenty of either). I can understand some people are unhappy the game wasn't what they were looking for, but I can hazard a guess that more are happy than unhappy with the direction of the series. That will influence future games more than threads like this which are so biased and mired in nostalgia.

Oh well on shorter guild quest lines, they were always short as guy above has shown. 31 to 25, there are far more quests outside the guilds than there have ever been, including infinite ones.

You can say less spells = simplified, but more armor/weapons = not simplified? Give me a break. Who cares if they don't degrade? That's obnoxious, especially in Fallout 3.

People keep saying casuals and don't know what it means, I correct them.



Quest lines don't mean guild quests, he elaborated after. You can have quest lines that have nothing to do with guilds or the main quests.

Move on, thou art foolish sire.

Ok, see that (emotional rant) part was where my counter point to what you just said is. I log in these forums, everyday and see contradicting posts. These are...

Post 1

"Mages are underpowerd wtfwtf" (why can i just use destruction and destruction only, why force me to use more to succeed)



Post 2

"Games dumbed down" (They removed spells and this game is sooo simple now)



Of course these are just some cliff notes. If you're here to argue, atleast appreciate my full opinion as we have to appreciate 47 threads a day of these complaints. Other games are at your finger tips. Unless whining is more fun than actually playing something else.

Quests having nothing to do with more or less complexity anyway. Actually doing these quests does though with in game "short cuts". There's still quest arrows (that are now toggled at least). But with Clairvoyance, which is just Fable breadcrumb trail, its made even more simple. If you choose to use it that is. Thank god it wasn't some auto feature for everyone.

You are myopic.

This game is getting a great crossover audience from all other mainstream traditionally non-RPG playing public.

I can't count how people I've seen on the internet in various non gaming internet forums with spontaneous Skyrim threads filled with comments like "Durr da elves and magic are lame but it's a kool game d00d. Ha ha."

There's always a new wave of people that each new TES game will be their first RPG.

Maybe if Bethesda makes enough money and gets rich enough they will fund spawning another studio to do throwback hardcoe RPGs. Something with challenge like DS. It would be a lot harder for DS to match TES in terms of lore and quests etc. Far easier for TES to adopt a similar, but not identical, attitude of a survival RPG.
It would be easy. Stop the hand holding and scaling. The loot svcks in Skyrim, compared to mods like Oscuro Oblivion. He knew what made a good game, that's why Bethesda hired him. I wish Bethesda would make their game more like his vision. But as long as the modders are continued to be given support, I can't' complain to much. If given the chance, I'd make simplified homogenized games for millions of dollars too. But they could make another TES universe spin off, call it TS Advanced.
It needn't have the budget of the mainstream TES series. Maybe it could eventually emerge to include PVP online.

This ruins the whole point of the spell effects in the first place. You need no magical skill whatsoever. You just need enough dragon souls, and have previously found a word wall. A warrior or thief can use them just as well as a mage.

So many useless shouts and a few great ones. It will never make up for the lost spells with powers used after several seconds. It was a horrible idea.

Yes fewer, four major factions and few minor factions and some sidequest. If you ever played Morrowind and played threw all of the game and did most if not all of the quest lines including the main quest its VERY long trust me. They are shorter it only takes a few hour for a faction quest.

More armor than Oblivion less than Morrowind, step up from Oblivion still behind Morrowind. After glass/ebony not much in Skyrim or Oblivion, I will give you that Skyrim has more armor so that is better for me. Same for weapons.

Your view on casuals definition is an opinion not a fact. My view on casuals definition is also an opinion.

I think casual gamers will play anything for a few seconds and they do not understand a lot about games but they will play games like Gears, Batman AC, Assassins Creed, CoD, Mario, Sim City, Sims, and even Skyrim and games like Disgaia. They will play some things whatever they like they will play a few minutes and leave it alone. Games do not hold any amount depth or it does not hold their attention and they do something else. Its an opinion just like you say if you play Farmville you must be a casual gamer.

Regardless, they art not unique. And since they art generic, they count as 1 quest.

The story of the quests are great. They're awesome...

BUT!
There is a magical arrow that points out direction in some of them...


I know, I know... There are lots of non-quests things for you to do... Like reading a journal, and using the information inside it to find awesome things... unique items, creatures and treasures.
There are things like this... Just saying. Just read the books and the journals... You'll find them

But some quests are so amazing, and shouldn't be so simplified. C'mon, I mean... You open a book, you don't even read it and the quest starts? Just follow the magical arrow.
A quest that has story, but the player some times doesn't even bother to look at it... Then this same player is going to say: "Ohhh, there is no story in Skyrim, it svcks"

Did you ever think that, this might have something to do with the fact skyrim has had a WAY larger advertising budget than previous titles? I mean a live action commercial? Never saw one for oblivion. I've had more questions from friends that are CoD fans going, "is skyrim cool man? I saw the commercial. looks sweet... d00d."