And that's fine. It's not enough for them to jack up prices without reason and with impunity. Nor does it in any way counter the fact that with a nation looking to spend, they'd make more by lowering taxes with them.

The point is again moot, as I said like thrice this thread, maybe more. Countries with way worse problems than Skyrim have recovered enough to mount huge war efforts, and because of that war effort. Every last problem doesn't need to be solved to fund one. A nip in the air may be bad for crops, but it sure as hell isn't going to quell the war machine of Nords that is feared for its appalling love for death and violence.

I don't much like the Nords of the Fourth Era, to be honest. Kind of magic fearing/distrusting these days, they had some powerful Mages in their time. Sad to see them borderline hating it.

They don't. Look at the guard dialogue, the court mages, and the mention of "battle maidens" by Asgeir Snow-Shod. The people that really distrust them are those in Winterhold for obvious reasons, and I don't blame them, and those in Morthal for whatever reason. Besides that, it's a few people here and there. The Dunmer of all people lorewise hate them more, and even hang conjurers and necromancers. Redguards hate them all almost.

I'm not surprised you dislike them though. That seems to be the main issue in these cw debates.

I don't think the Stormcloak or the Imperial ending should be canon, but I am going for more of an Imperial ending. I like the Nords, I think they are the best human race, but I don't like Ulfric or his Stormcloak Rebellion. Ulfric may be fighting the war for the rigth reasons, but he only wants power and he is willing to step on anyone who gets in his way or he considers "weak" or "not a true Nord". Where I come from, we have a word for people like that.

Ulfric wouldn't bring back the old nord way, he would try, but what he would do it bring about the Red Year-like event for Skyrim. With the Empire wanting to reclaim Skyrim. The Forsworn still being an issue, and the threat of the Thalmor, this may bing about the Sundering of Skyrim. The Empire we all know is dead, as is Ulfric's ture nord way. Compromise is what he lacks. I reccomend that they handle it like this:

The war rages on for a few years after Skyrim. If Ulfric dies, he is considered a martyr and Tullius is killed in battle. If Tullius dies, the war continues and Ulfric is killed in battle. The one constant there is that Elisif survives, as does the Dragonborn. The Dragonborn s remembered as a commander during the Season Unending and plays a crucial part in ending the war. After the Mede Emperor is killed, a power vacuum emerges in Cyrodiil, resulting in infighting. A peace treaty, allowing the worship of Talos is singed in Skyrim by one of the factions fightng for control of the Empire. The Nords take over that faction and now control Skyrim and most of Cyrodiil, some under the control of the Thalmor. Also, the Dragonborn dissapears during the war and is persumed dead by many, while others still belive he/she is still alive.

There. Skyrim is free from Imperial rule, since it's the other way around, a Nordic Empire of Skyrim rules Cyrodiil and Skyrim, as well as part of High Rock and is allied with Morrowind. Elisif would have a bastard son, for now, dubbed "Torygg the Younger" who is a student of the Way of the Voice. Ulfric is dead, but no one knowns who killed him. Perhaps the Dragonborn, perhaps the Thalmor.

Otherwise, perpetual war is also a worse ending. Stormcloak canon ending basically screws over everyone, including the Nords in the end. Imperial victory is the good guy ending. I'm sugesting a medium, with Elisif as High Queen, a young woman with a strong heart, who cares deepy for her people, and will one day become a strong leader. She's the only constant.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Nords, they are my favourite race, along with the Dunmer. But I hate Ulfric and I admire Elisif and Balgruuf. They care more for their people than Ulfric and his supporters, who care more for tradition, religion and themselves. Sure, the Jarls were baught off, but hey, nobody's perfect, right. Ulfric is a coward as well, a traitor, a murdered and a biggot and a racist. Hells, I would rather have Erikur on the throne than Ulfric. To me, Elisif will always be the canon leader of Skyrim, just because she doesn't die during the questline.

I have to agree here, more of a general feel of the game overall as a disconnect with magic in their tradition. The vibe in Skyrim is distrust and a lack of understanding of it and while there are some that give it credit, it is always in a historical sense or a general curious thought, yet never enough for them to dedicate themselves to the craft. Most Nords in Skyrim spend to much time swinging an axe, either as a general life trade or as the sort of generalized statement as relying on more direct physicality in a fight.

Overall I just don't really see much in the Nordic culture that interests or impresses me that much, so I admit I find myself often disconnected from their people.

They believe the Court Wizard of Windhelm is a Necromancer. Healers are something different, and are respected. Guard dialogue is taken with a grain of salt at best, they merely say things to reflect your skills/quests done. There appears to be some sort of distrust amongst Nord commoners towards Mages. Which is understandable, as the Nord Mage in Winterhold explains.

I don't believe the Dunmer hate Mages exactly, they hate Necromancy due to their connection with Ancestors. Which Necromancy was treated harshly. Redguards don't like Mages either, but that is to do with it being considered weak or wicked.

My like or dislike for Nords doesn't affect Civil War debates. I mostly play as Stormcloak anyway. Also how exactly is people disliking Nords an issue in cw debates? It's a Civil war, both sides are Nords.

Edit: Though about guard dialogue, they also have a suppose it could be said, hostile tone when you cast magic around them.

Funny though besides Altmer and Bretons the most common necromancers were usually Dunmer, both named and generic. I think it was really the only the Dunmer of Morrowind who hate necromancy due to to their ancestor rites and traditions. Then again Necromancy is an art generally frowned upon throughout Tamriel, so I wouldn't be surprised. Even the Imperials who we generally think having nothing against magic had no magical institution to speak of until the Akaviri Potentate brought in and patronized the Mages guild from the Summerset Isles in the Second Era.

As for Redguards that was only a late 3rd Era thing possibly due to Azra Nightwielder mucking up Eastern Hammerfell with his Shadow magic and the Camoran Usurper devastating the province before him which could be why they were viewed as evil during that time. The Sword-singers bands we know of like the Hiradirge were incredibly powerful mages themselves and even the late xenophobic Crowns employ powerful battlemages in Naval warfare as we've seen in TES Redguard. It's actually pretty stunning in my opinion to see that almost half the named Redguards in Skyrim are mages or capable of some powerful magic.

You'd be hostile too if I summoned a fire atronach near you. The distrust is quite minimal compared to hanging conjurers and such. Wuunferth the unliving being rumored to be a necromancer isn't surprising given his eccentric nature. And there's something to be said about the Ulfric Stormcloak, nordiest guy around having a mage in his court, like with almost all Jarls.

People disliking Nords means they wouldn't care about what is best for them:

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1486942-civil-war-racial-poll/

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1471531-if-the-situation-was-different-v11/

What happens in Morrowind aside, there is still distrust towards Mages in Skyrim. The College being shunned and somewhat feared, many Nords do seem to be less magic inclined. Even Tsun's dialogue suggests as much, so I think the Nordic God for Trials against Adversity would have a good idea.

Ulfric uses the Thu'um which itself is a form of magic. Also Ulfric has been good friends with his Court Wizard for a very long time. Jarls having Court Wizards don't often mean they overly love or even trust Mages. The Court Wizard's job is to advise their Jarl in magical issues of the Hold.

I don't see how you can like Nords but prefer milquetoast, imperialized Nords who are basically Cyrodiils with funny accents, on their knees in front of the empire and the Thalmor both, to the more quintessential variety who are standing up to the Kyne damned elves. Ulfric is practically a page out of the PGE and game descriptions of Nords.

Does not compute.

Over half their city collapsed, and with the Augur of Dunlain, we see they might not be wrong in their suspicion. The entire college survived after all, and it looks really suspicious as far as the way the bridge and everything is just sitting there, so why is this an issue? It's not like their suspicion is unfounded.

The Thu'um is an honored ability by all Nords for being considered Nord magic. The court wizard shows that even if it isn't celebrated, it isn't hated either. Like their xenophobia, they distrust what is considered alien to them. Given the role of magic in their suffering in recent history, this is very understandable. I don't get why this is a real point against them as far as your dislike goes, but then, this is just Nords in general, not Stormcloaks, so I don't need to get it. It's your opinion. I dislike khajiit, and that's mine. No need to elaborate further unless you wish to.

Who was also broken by the Thalmor, remade and then allowed to escape. Who broke his oath of loyalty to the Empire, broke his oath of fealty to his King. Uses the rallying of Talos to gain support, yet the only thing to with Talos is blackmailing a worshiper. Completely absorbed by self image, for better songs and stories. Who has his Officers dressed like bears to emulate his banners. Who according to some may of spread a rumor of himself dying defending Windhelm from a Dragon to bolster recruitment. His political supporters, comprised of one who would want to see every last man, woman and child die against trained soldiers, before losing his position. Another who teaches his son to hate all elves and would rather blame the cold on Mages. One who is politically weak and speaks of fleeing the city in front of her subjects, and finally we have a would be slaver.

Other than that, all good. Empire or Stormcloaks, Skyrim will still be a crap place for the citizenry.

Most of the common folk in Cyrodil distrust magic too. Mostly because of the Oblivion Crisis, the Mages Guild was dissolved for a reason.

I didn't say I did not understand their reasons, I just didn't like how it turned out that way.

A reason never stated. Two other factions replaced the Mages Guild, the Synod and College of Whispers. The Oblivion Crisis caused more common folk to fear Daedra, which caused groups like the Vigil of Stendarr to pop up. What caused the Nords was a combination of the Great Collapse, Great War and Oblivion Crisis.

Edit: Perhaps the Mages Guild fell apart when the Arch-Mage became the Daedric Prince of Madness, would of made Council meetings entertaining. Though issues with Necromancy always caused tensions in the Guild, resignations and killings.

First, how does one rebel without breaking an oath? So what if he broke his oath if the one it was given to is no longer worthy of such? This is like those people [censored]ting on and berating women for divorcing their abusive husbands. Very fitting for how the Empire is back hand slapping their provinces.

Him using a valid cause to achieve a goal is a bad thing? What is he supposed to do, ignore it? That's his reason for wanting to rebel, not rebeling to be king and using this as a means to gain power for kicks and giggles. People forget why the Empire arrested him, and what started this whole thing. The dragon rumor thing is just silly, it's just a joke comment belittling him, same as how the Imps belittled his cause by calling his soldiers Stormcloaks in the first place, which they gladly kept calling themselves.

Won't even get on the subject of Jarls, seeing as all of them are flawed to the max, and I could go on and on all day about Imperial ones. Especially Balgruuf, and Siddgeir.

They don't. Nords value their word, honorable race. He waited until Torygg had become King, he didn't make a move while Istlod was High King. The King who would of accepted the White-Gold Concordat for Skyrim, since he had the option to refuse like Hammerfell. Ulfric calls Istlod a true High King. Interesting how the Stormcloaks blame Torygg for the treaty, yet it was his father who is apparently a true High King.

Many suggest he doesn't care about the worship of Talos. To be honest, I don't think I've ever heard him mention Talos much. Ulfric was arrested in the Markarth Incident, by Jarl Hrolfdir. How would people forget the Talos ban? It's been in effect for twenty six years. You say the Dragon rumor is a joke to belittle him, perhaps, perhaps not.

So says the Stormcloak Officers. Yet Rikke says it was they who named themselves, given that they have a fancy tale with a Storm and cloak of brotherhood. I'm given to believe Rikke.

Though the Markarth Incident is an interesting subject. I did enjoy the so called refutations in the 'Handy Civil War debate links'.

Siddgeir is an idiot and a bad Jarl. No doubts that, both sides are flawed. That is the point. You could go on all day about every one of them. Except Brina she is the best Jarl in Skyrim.

Yes, there is. In times of trouble, that term is "Salvation".

I would contest this view of Ulfric Stormcloak. He is Force, not Power. He has seen Skyrim get torn apart by mistreatment at the hands of the empire, and so far has been the only person with the motivation and drive to purge the corruption of weak leadership and establish a strong Nordic identity - While he may seem "Extreme" for such a stance, his is the only option that prevents the Nords from falling under dominion rule. Yes, he will run over anyone who fails to identify as a Son of Skyrim (They don't HAVE to be a Nord, but it helps to tie into their ancestral ties like that - A non-nord has to forsake their entire non-Nordic culture to fit in).

Peace is death.

My only thought on this matter is how soon the Empire plans to counterattack the Thalmor, as the game hints numerous times. If it's within the next few years, it might be best for Skyrim to stay in that group. On the other hand, there's no reason why Skyrim can't march with the Empire as an ally even if they were to split, other than possible bad blood.

If it's going to take a decade or two, then it's probably better to pull away now. The world is already pretty fragile. Talos worship is needed to hold it together in a decent condition.

So called? They're pretty sound. The numbers don't add up, the facts don't add up, plain and simple.

There's nothing in Nord word that says never go back on your word even when made the equivalent of a domestic violence victim. Nords value honor in battle, this isn't a nation of boyscouts. Remember Potema had a lot of Nord support until her son was killed.

As for Torygg, Ulfric didn't do so then, true but Ulfric also wasn't the Jarl yet. Ulfric was a new Jarl not yet known and not likely yet respected enough to go against his father who was regarded as a good king. Torygg on the other hand as we know is just regarded as an Empire poster boy.

And as for him and Talos, read:

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000a1929

Rikke:

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x0005b3ce

So she doesn't actually say that, she just says its his vanity, like a lot of people assume. Easy to forget who called who what. Given that Rikke and Tullius just got here for the war that was ongoing, I'll believe the ones who were there in Skyrim and the war longer.

If you wanted I could show you the major hole in those refutations.

The Empire still has a lot of Nords supporting too. It isn't as simple, an oath of allegiance is something many take extremely seriously.

Ulfric was Jarl during Istlod's reign. He had already been Jarl when Torygg was made King, which Ulfric voiced independence in terms just shy of treason. But, it isn't simply of when Ulfric did it. The Stormcloak Officers say it was Torygg who accepted the treaty and that the Empire surrendered when the Imperial City was nearly destroyed.

Are you sure Rikke just got there? We know for fact Tullius only arrived few months ago and took charge. But Rikke may of been posted there from the start.

Knock yourself out.

Them not breaking the oath has nothing to do with principle of staying loyal, but everything to do with thinking it is the safe option, and not willing to try going without them.

Ulfric wasn't Jarl until later during Islod's rule, which is what I was saying. Much later in his rule, as Islod died I'm assuming of old age, so that shows you the gap in Ulfric's and Islod's rule. It isn't likely that Ulfric could look favorable against him anyway. Though if Torygg was apparently the one that accepted the treaty, then Ulfric definitely wasn't a Jarl during Islod's rule, because Ulfric when he left to take Markarth wasn't a Jarl then, and by then the treaty was already in place.

Rikke is his second, so I assume not, but no, I don't know that for sure admittedly. Still, this is something every last commander says, and Rikke again doesn't claim that they or he thought it up, she just says he's vain. So he could have heard it and decided to keep it, and her accusation would still make sense. Really, Ulfric is egotistical. It's said a lot that a rebel leader, or any good leader needs to be partly.

Honor is a two-way stream, so is the merit of your word. Being a province of the Empire, on paper, is supposed to grant a few things in return, like protection. When the Empire is unable or unwilling to hold to their side of the bargain, the word given by the other side does not prevent them from changing their stance, since it is dependent on certain circumstances.

Lords have duties to their vassals, and the vassals to their people, just as much as the people have to the vassals and the vassals to the lord. The Empire have a very one-sided track record of not being able to provide much protection for their provinces, or the kingdoms, since the 4th Era began, starting with the abandonment of Morrowind, being unable to stop the Thalmor coup in Valenwood, the failure to protect Orsinium, the abandonment of Hammerfell(twice) in the Great War, and the fall of Cheydinhal, Bravil and Wayrest. On top of this, they are allowing, and have for the last 26 years, their civilians to be arrested, tortured and killed merely for holding to worship of a particular god.

When the Empire expects all the benfits(taxes, tributes, manpower, control over the government etc.) of ruling a province, without providing even basic protection(unless it directly threatens their position as rulers of course, like it does with Ulfric's rebellion) in return, that is very much a justification for the Nords, or anyone else, to stop honoring their side of the bargain. After all, the Empire is not honoring theirs.

I'll send it in a conversation. Easier.

Ulfric was Jarl during the Moot to make Torygg High King. (The formality meeting, Ulfric was present)

Ah yea, duh. Don't know how I forgot that. Though who says Torygg was the one to accept the treaty then? Unless they simply mean he continued to.