Last thread is about to be locked, so I'll continue here. Guess that brings us back to the original point.

To me, it should be canon as the last op said, to start something new and fresh. The "great and glorious Empire" is getting really boring to see honestly. All that pretending to be the perfect society when it clearly isn't, it's been done to death. Mix it up, Beth. Besides that, the Nords I think we can all agree had a pretty lazy portrayal in TES V. Granted, this isn't the first time this has happened, but even so, if the Nords were ruling themselves again and the Imperial influence was lessened, in lore at least, we could possibly see the Nords start to do their own thing again, ressurect that old pantheon of theirs that we wanted to see but didn't (because the devs thought two pantheons would be too 'complex' for us simpletons, but that's another conversation entirely).

Ulfric Stormcloak is also likely the first person that is in a high position in Skyrim to come from the Greybears wielding their knowledge as a weapon (as it should, since the thu'um is obviously meant to be used as such, among many other things.) So this seems to be an opportunity for the Nords to learn this art once more.

Even if you don't like Ulfric, the Nords, or the Stormcloaks, imagine if this was a race you did like, then tell me what you would say. And really, I don't like the khajiit much, but I wouldn't want any of the races to become bland and boring, losing culture and aspects that made them original and interesting. Would you? TES simply suffers from this Imperialized oneness caused by the Empire, and I for one am glad the Argonians kicked their ass to the curb, and pushed out everything with even a hint of Imperialism. Though obviously I don't want the Nords killing Imperial citizens and such. Future allies.

My last post:

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1489546-why-a-stormcloak-win-should-be-canon/?p=23425969

It should be canon not because it's "fresh and new", it's really not, it should be canon because the whole theme of the fourth era is the downfall of humanity's dominance, they shouldn't make Ulfric become this powerful leader that leads skyrim into a golden age.


That could all end up null and void if the Dunmer in the grey quarter breaks into riots and are treated in a horrible fashion.


Not really, Ulfric depleted windhelm's treasury and stock in the war, Solitude is in ruins as is whiterun, skyrim is still heavily divided, the Forsworn could be heavily more motivated by either choices in the forsworn conspiracy which could end up with Markarth being lost if Ulfric doesn't maintain the reach, bandits are still everywhere, dragons.

Skyrim is still weak even if the Empire wins and it will take time to rebuild. We also don't know how good of a leader Ulfric is, if we judge by his rule of Windhelm that is not a good thing.

Downfall of the Empire's dominance, you mean. Since Ulfric winning wouldn't lead to humanity's downfall. Why shouldn't Ulfric be the one to make Skyrim better? Also, I don't much care for a golden age, just a return of Nordiness.

The Empire that We knew and Loved died in the First Year of the Fourth Era. In Morrowind Wulf (an Avatar of Talos) hinted that the Empire is dying, and someting new and different is needed.

A Skyrim that is Independent forces Cyrods to fix the issues that have led to the collapse of the Empire. The Dominion may still be a threat, but an Independent Skyrim is more than willing to assist in the extermination of Dominion Troops. Hammerfell would have a very difficult time keeping the Youths of that Nation from volunteering to kill Dominion Soldiers.

Bretons may be allowed to throw off the shackles of Political Infighting and become a Nation

RL and Tamriellic History have proven that Allies can be made of Enemies in the face of a stronger threat. Hoag Merkiller allied with Direnni led Bretons to crush the Allesians. Chimer and Dwemer united to stop the Nordic Empire from expanding past Vvardenfell.

Glad someone else finally said it. I don't think people realize forcing Cyrodiil to be a kingdom and work with what they have may be the best thing for it. Empires that try to hold on to too much with too little power end up crumbling too hard to stabilize into something else.

Not much different than the NCR in FNV.

No I mean the downfall of humanity's dominance. Ulfric winning could in fact strengthen the fact that humanity is falling because they are becoming divided. Making skyrim better is a GOAL, it hasn't happened at all in lore so we can't speculate that Ulfric achieves his goal, it's entirely possible that Ulfric fails horribly.


Breton politics have been like that even without the Empire, it's not an imperial-created system.

So because this somehow 'could' happen according to you, it shouldn't happen at all, and we should just stick with the Empire and ignore the possibility of getting something better?

I'd rather have a chance at having Nords be Nords again than to stick with the same tired old shadow of the Empire that has been hinted to die and shown much more signs of failing than Ulfric since pretty much the first Elderscrolls game.

Ulfric being something better is a far stretch, have you seen how he rules windhelm? That's not better then the empire, especially if Ulfric's policy on ignoring people (the Dunmer) and banning people (the Argonians) and starts ignoring bandits who attack non-nords become a thing on a national level. Ulfric hasn't proved himself to be a competent leader so saying he could fail horribly isn't out of the question. We have proof simply from his hold that he isn't even doing a good job at ruling ONE city.

Weren't you the one who just said that since something hasn't happened in lore, we can't assert that it will happen? Kinda strange for you to now assert that Brunwulf's presentation of Ulfric will become national, given that it hasn't happened in lore.

First, yes I have, and given that he's doing so while occupied with a war on his own funds, he's not doing that bad. I don't see any sign of segregation being a nationwide thing when there is no segregation in Riften despite the racial tension there. And really, Ulfric ignoring petty dunmer issues while a war is going on shows he knows where his priorities should be. They have free homes, so why should he worry about them over all of Skyrim? Also, its rather obvious that he doesn't address every issue because his men are occupied with the war, as the dialogue mentions this when regarding a murderer of NORD citizens, but I guess only the Dunmer suffer.

He's ruling several cities while fighting a war with the EMPIRE. Not doing too bad in that light, no matter what people claim.

Did I say Brunwulf is going to do a better job? No, I didn't even mention Brunwulf. We have no reason to assume that Brunwulf is lying about Ulfric ignoring bandits that attack non-nords, the steward quests could simply be a game play mechanic or those bandits attacked a nord caravan.

Brumwulf doesn't say that Ulfric banished the argonians, the person who does say it is an argonian who speaks of stormcloak prejudice, we see stormcloak-supporting nords berating and harassing Dunmer. We can't ignore these when we talk about Ulfric's rule because these are major points.


He is fighting a minor percent of the Empire, a murderer is bad yes but ignoring a whole group of people can lead to riots and protests, same with the banishing of a ethnic group from living within the walls of a city. The war isn't even a year old at the start of skyrim, these aren't problems that suddenly happened as soon as the civil war started.

*Is tempted to make a 'Why a Thalmor win should be canon' thread*

Like i said, if it was going to end up cannon then we would have never been able to choose sides to begin with.

There are good points on both sides, but it's hard to take these threads seriously when each persons opinion is being ignored due to their down right love of one side instead of looking at it as a whole. Keep open minded people, seriously some of you act like damn children with the way you ignore points and stealthily attack each other.

Since when is a bit of racism in Tamriel a major point, exactly? And the argonian speaks of Nord prejudice, not Stormcloak prejudice. Not saying they don't have their racists. Everyone does, but the Stormcloak's goal isn't a racist agenda in the slightest.

Please try to get what I am saying right if you're going to respond. Your argument was based on Brunwulf's presentation of Ulfric being applied as a national standard, asserted as fact, when you a post or two earlier said that we can't assert things that haven't happened in lore, or I would say at least without a stated intention from the one who would be doing it. Which, and here is my point, either negates this point, or makes you a hypocrite for asserting something that haven't happened and is never stated as intentional.

"I've lived in this city for 20 years, 20! The Stormcloaks can rot in Oblivion for all i care."

A minor percent of the empire with a minor percent of Nords in Skyrim.

The rioting and protesting is exactly why the argonians are segregated in the first place, whether you think it's because of their relationship with just Nords, or Nords and Dunmer. And actually, the war has been going on for a while, according to the Stormcloak in Falkreath:

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00088949

So?

I'll continue from last thread.

'Ready to advance on our position as Pale Pass is clear'. That means it isn't clear? I must of failed English, generally when something is said to be clear, it means clear.

Many of the farms are being attacked, causing a raise in prices. Dragons haven't done much? In-game perhaps, but you do come across trade caravans that have been burnt. Wagons and supplies roasted. One farm doesn't feed a country, bandits are raiding many farms. Farmers are fighting in the war. If Dragons aren't causing problems with economy, then the Civil War must not be either. Flying lizards burning and eating people, would be a little more than a nuisance.

The Forsworn are attacking the trade routes, and they can't get supplies through those roads. If that isn't a big threat, where you don't control your trade routes...

Saying the Holds are poor isn't just a simple thing as money. Balgruuf mentions he can barely pay for his guards, his Steward mentions their supplies are dangerously low. Solitude is apparently starving and Tullius has to put a tax on trade ships to keep funding the war. Windhelm is in disrepair and the Hold's mill is all but abandoned due to the war.

The Khajiit are mentioned to be some of the only caravans left moving between the holds. It is said majority of merchants have left Skyrim.

No, when people are apparently starving. It means they're rich and only choose to eat little? You can't eat coins. Solitude's funds and resources are being heavily used in the war.

'Prepping' for war takes a lot of resources also, training and equipment, food and pay. Need to secure everything, clear the bandits who are raiding the farms and clear the Forsworn who are attacking the silver shipments. That takes soldiers, who take resources, who also need replaced if killed in the process.

And what i said was a conversation from one of the many NPCs in the game that would disagree.

You do know that something said about the Stormcloaks' goals by non-Stormcloaks, that cannot be verified by any Storrmcloak source, shouldn't be taken as fact, right? After all, it is the Stormcloak leadership, meaning Galmar and Ulfric, who decides the goals of the rebellion, and neither of them expresses any desire to remove non-Nords from Skyrim. They want to remove the Empire and the Dominion, which is different.

I might just as well say that the Empire is a puppet of the Dominion because anti-Empire sources tells me so. Same approach to the issue.

So disgruntled whiny Dunmer saying Ulfric eats mer babies means that it's true....

@Falco

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1492225-why-a-stormcloak-win-should-be-canon-2/?p=23426900

What i said did not come from a Dunmer, actually~

Don't forget that we have a farmer in Whiterun who states a single nip in the air is bad for crops enough, imagine if a heavy winter happens then there goes a lot of crops, we also have that the silver becomes useless if the Empire launches an embargo on skyrim with the bretons following OR as I stated before the bretons see skyrim as weak and attack them. The Dunmer get to the point of riots and depending on Ulfric's actions could effect relations with Morrowind. Finally you have that skyrim has no real naval power, of course that could be wrong, but it could mean that they have to build ships which takes resources and if the trade lines aren't manned then it could lead to pirates seeing the waters in skyrim as easy picking.

And that matters because.... people bad mouthing them for whatever reason doesn't make it true. Hell, what you quoted doesn't even show much of anything.

Wrong, its depleted in the war if the Imperials win. Solitude is far from being "in ruins", same for whiterun. Skyrim isn't divided because Ulfric controls it, and soldiers who want to earn a living, and fight the elves will eventually go to the victor no matter who that is, since these people were undecided. Bandits are always everywhere... dragons are taken care of, and the reachmen only took Markarth when it wasn't well occupied.

More doomsday talk to undermine SC possibility. And I already addressed Ulfric's rule. Skyrim really isn't weak. Weaker, but not weak. During the war, yes, since it isn't operating at full capacity.

Seeing that we are down the fun road of negative speculation, here is mine: