Exactly, so leave Skyrim. No body else dies fighting. The Imperials can then, now free of having to worry about Skyrim, focus on the remaining Imperial territories. And the Nords along with the Alik'r will continue to drain the AD. This is what proxy war is all about. Its effective. Its why all the major world powers in REAL LIFE do this very thing. Its how we ended the cold war with the Russians. Its how the Chinese beat us in Vietnam.

Can't remember the name. Female Imperial officer if I remember right.

And the effectiveness when the Great War began is not the effectiveness currently. Both the Empire and the AD are weakened. The Empire, initially more so. But much like the original conflicts between the Elves in Skyrim when the Nords first came under Ysgamor. The Elves were not able to match the ability for men to reproduce. Mer are slow to replenish their ranks. That is why the AD is now in a weakened state. After the war they had advantage. Not so now. Keep letting them kill all the able bodied Norse sword arms though and that might change.

Secret thread title ending: ...and why I personally don't don't give a Septim about it.

Just join the Stormcloaks and enjoy the Civil War, because none is better than the other.

Remember the Thalmor destroyed 3 entire legion, and lost the support from Hammerfall, Elsewry, Black Marsh, Valenwood, and Summerset Isles. You could also say half of skyrim's legion due to the civil war, and Morrowind never sent troops to support, just supplies, and the heart of lorkhan. Also the Jerrall Mountains prevent anyone from entering skyrim from the south, which is the only way cyrodill could enter. To add again High Rock is always busy with eternal conflict, and the orcs to the south. So the empire only has half a legion in Skyrim and a few armies from the Imperial Jarls. If Skyrim wanted to conquer High Rock, Morrowind, and Orinsinum nothing would stop them due to geographical, and limitations on the empires part.

Oh, who knows why? Ah, yes, because he decided to join a group of wanted rebels who support a man that murdered with no mercy a random beggar who casually stumbled on a crown and a throne. Sure, no big deal.

Can't worry about a future enemy that might be, when you have one in reality right in front of you. Saying you can't trust the Nords not to conquer the world isn't much when you have the Elves attempting to do the same thing (and more). Your trading one oppressor for another. At least the Nords wouldn't be trying to destroy all the pillars in the process...

Lol the thread svcked you in....

Torygg wasnt a beggar. He was inexperienced and ultimatly hurting Skyirm. Ulfric gave him the ultimatum; stand down and be at my side when we fight the Thalmor or battle me as the way of all true nords to see who is more worthy of High King.

Now reading my posts make me laugh lol

the beggar part was sarcasm lmao I thought it would have the point that he wasn't just a random guy that Ulf killed, but the King of the entire province more clear using that word.

Also... Sybille Stentor made it very clear that if only Ulf would simply talk and negotiate with Thor he would have listened, but Ulf wanted his throne, >regardless of the Thalmor and the Talos banish< so killing Tor for that sounds pretty sad, like a treason to a friend. Come on...

If there was a another Great War in TES involving the Elves and Humans it would all come down to the beast races and the orcs, Those two were neutral and didn't openly say we love the Thalmor. Whoever had them on their side would win, with numbers, strength from the orcs, and being able to surround the enemy with their three countries.

Argonian will probably stay neutral, but orc? Who knows. But I doubt the thalmor will accept Orc they are after all corrupted elves, but then again they accept Khajiit.

Ulfric didnt murder the High King either. He challenged him to combat traditional to all Nords since Ysgramor. Torygg had his chance to step down from the thrown and join Ulfric but he didn't and died in combat.

Thorald wasn't in the stormcloaks. Avulstein was. Thorald was arrested by the empire in an effort to draw Avulstein out of hiding. The thalmor told the empire to hand him over as they think he's a Talos worshipper. The empire obliged. When you free him, he notes that he wasn't a stormcloak, but that they're the only ones that can offer him safe harbor now.

The skyrim legion is not the empire legion. It's local recruits. Before they started recruiting the local nords, the legion in skyrim was losing terribly.(Hence why tullius was called in)

And I doubt the empire will be around much longer anyways. Beth's headin towards it crumbling soon.




Ah yes, that's why Ysgramor and the 500 companions were eventually defeated by the Falmer. That's also why Vehk triumphed over Cyrus at their second meeting. Or why skyrim lost the fight against both hammerfell and High Rock at the same time and never took the reach from them. Because magic > brute strength.

Spoken like a true master of the forums and TES lore Cecilff2. Well said.

The issue with that old tradition is that it is seen as a regular murder by the Empire, because Skyrim is an Emperial province, so no excuses here. No Talos, no traditions, no nothing. That's what the rules say. If you go against the rules you are either handeld by the Empire you're lucky, if not, get tortured all day by the Thalmor. And they do it because they can.

And yes, you're right about Thorald not fully being with the Storms, but even a tiny proof of involvment with them, even if indirect is against the above mentioned rules. Rules that exist to prevent the Thalmor to destroy the Empire.

Rules are not the word of God. Just because a government entity establishes them, doesnt mean theyre right.

Ulfric disobeyed these rules for what he believed. He did this on the account of honour and traditions held sacred by all the Nords since they came from Atmora. These traditions hold precident over law because some were even established by Tiber Septim, the God known as Talos. This makes Ulfric a martyr and a true leader who refuses to forsake his people for petty laws.

I do agree that the WGC is a mistake.

But still I can't send a bomb package to Berlusconi hahaha!!!

I agree. The Emperor should have resist a bit more like Hammerfell did, kicking the Thalmor out of their land.

A bomb backage is different than upholding one's honour and traditions. These outdate the empire and are the foundation of Skyrim. If everyone bowed down to their oppressors just because they make something a law, all things righteous would fade from the world.

I know, I know, don't take me too seriously! What I meant is that, yes, if only everyone did as Hammerfell, maybe now Skyrim would be free. But then I would see no point to kick out the Empire. The issue is that by signing up the Concordat was a little kind of lazy way to stop the war.

Ever considered neither side is correct?

Stormcloaks are like beginning America, they fight for freedom, for home, for rights. Imperials fight to keep the peace, more than likely trying to bide time against the true enemy of the Thalmor (of whom have threatened they'll start another war soon basically saying the truce is the calm before the storm with the next storm being more powerful than the last -Ondolemer). Ulfric fights for Ulfric, Legion fights for preservation. Nords fight for their home, Imperials fight for unity. Nords want to have their own home and rights, Imperials want unity abroad.
If the emperor had a better choice he probably would've continued to fight the Thalmor but no such luck.

Both have red in their books, unnessesary killings that created deep scars that'll never truly leave. Both actually have a simiar goal: peace.

Both sides hate the Thalmor. But itd be like America siding with the Nazis and the overthrowing them later. Its against all grounds of honor. Torygg might not have had ill intentions, but he still was leading an Empire astray. He had his chance to side with Ulfric and give Skyrim a better chance of winning, but he chose not to and paid the price.

He would've followed if asked.

Actually according Sybill Stentor, Torygg will just go along with Ulfric had he just asked.